With Louise Drew, Partner & Head of Building Communities - in association with Housing LIN
10 November 2020, 9:30AM - 10:15AM
In this joint webinar with Housing LIN, Jeremy Porteus and Louise Drew we will be talking to David Birkbeck, Chief Executive at Design for Homes and David Pendle, Associate Director at Marrons Planning about what makes a winning scheme.
A previous winner of the National Design Awards, David Birkbeck will share his personal views on how Building for Life supports the quality of design for later life projects, and David Pendle who has over 20 years’ experience in public sector town planning will delve into the key considerations when submitting planning applications to the local authorities.
David Birkbeck
Chief Executive, Design for Homes
David Pendle
Associate Director, Marrons Planning
Louise Drew
Partner & Head of Building Communities
If you wish to put your questions forward in advance, please email these to events@shma.co.uk
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Webinar transcript
(Please note this is auto-generated and un-edited)
0:10
Good morning, everybody, and welcome to the latest in a series of seminars, focusing on the later living sector. We're here today to look at Building for Life, Planning for a happy life, having a look at the happy reports as we unlock some of the interesting information that's available in those four design planning, off later living accommodation. My name is Luis True and I'm the head of the building communities team here, Shakespeare Martina. And today I've been joined by David, who is the Chief Executive, designed for homes. We have Jeremy Porteous, the Chief Executive Housing Glenn, and we have David ..., an associate director, Maryland's Planning.
0:58
Our population is ever aging. We currently have 12 million people who are over the age of 65, and this is only set to rise to around 20 million people in the next 50 years. However, only about 5% of the properties that are in the UK is specifically designed for people living longer and aging in place. We currently undertaking a survey which has surveyed both the public and also registered providers within the later living sector. And one of the questions that we've asked in that survey is What is it that would encourage more people to move into retirement housing schemes? And we've asked it off both providers and older people generally.
1:48
And we found interesting is that the public mostly perceive that time housing schemes are a place to go once the current property is known suitable because of either mental or physical health needs.
2:03
It's becoming very apparent that the design of later living schemes needs to become more aspirational. We need to look at a way to move away from people wanting to stay in the large family homes that are difficult for them to look after, and bring with stress and isolation, to actually get people to move into accommodation that is far more suitable and enables them to gain the benefit of well-being, health, and the socialization of living with like minded people. So we're going to look at the various six principles within the Happy Report To start with, I'm going to hand over to Jeremy who is looking at the need always going to talk to us about the need and demand, that this type of accommodation. Jeremy.
2:54
Right, Good morning, everybody. I'm delighted to be here. Really important session to housing in our later life, from the housing learning improvement that were formerly part of the Change Agent team, and we invest in 12 minutes of money into looking at future supply of housing and the need for an aging population may well be. This culminated in a grant that was made available to local authorities. And as part of that, we drew on a number of metrics to help local authorities and the provider partners better understand the demands in their local economies work for a range of housing options for older people, everything from sheltered in retirement housing, right through to astro and supported living.
3:38
one of the key thing about the national trends is that we know in terms of needs that we've got a lot of software, all the people in the hope that it predates the 21st century. In fact, we've got about three quarters of a million existing purpose built housing for older people. As you said, that equates to about 5% of the total supply. But at the same time, some work, the local government Association, completed back in 2017, and echoed in the joint report with Shakespeare Martineau, Spotlight on Housing and Retirement Living, shows that about we've got a shortfall of about 400,000 purpose built housing, now, until 20 30. We currently only building between 5 and 7000 units of accommodations. So we have an annual deficit.
4:28
We have a deficit between 25 and 30,000 new housing being billed every year for older people, If we're going to take the $400,000 shortfall into account, this means that we need to ensure that we have better needs assessment locally that can predict the type of demand. And what we're going to hear this morning is very much about how we can design in at the outset better quality housing to create more attractive homes and communities for older people through both the design and build process, but also how we plan and engage with our local communities, including local authorities. At the same time, much of our mainstream housing was built before the 20th century. And as a result of that, we've got people who live in, often, in very unfair, to him, poor repair accommodation in poor repair. We need to meet their needs as well and offer an attractive alternative to their existing homes.
5:20
We have a significant number of people living alone, especially in older age, and that's been exacerbated under the kogod. And we're also seeing in terms of the demands for retirement, living people, not wanting to see whether that's an opportunity to find a community that they can live in, where they have more reassurance, that care and support will be on-site, something that the happy design principles are underpinned by as we look at, OK, ready housing. And that care readiness can also support people with long term conditions, such as people living with dementia. All those people who care isn't live with care and receive on your care and support.
5:58
So, the real challenge for us, going forward, and what this session, is really going to try and uncover what is the offer for the 21st century for, for an aging population? The Happy reports. So, we'll cover this in the next slide, shows a selection of those come across in the last 12 years. The first one, who has produced back in 20 18, 19, and David who'll be speaking, surely, was very instrumental in helping to shape with a, with a really important panel for innovation of architects, policymakers, thought leaders that sets out 10 cool design principles to support readiness, to enable people to age in place and live well into later life.
6:38
A few years later, the implementation of the plan for implementation report came out recognizing that not sufficient traction would have been taken place. And we needed to think much more about the standards, the regulation, the performance framework, as well as the incentives, to create the market conditions. And a few years after that, happy three showed how that sort of inspirational and aspirational homes could really manifests itself in high quality, attractive housing. Both commissioned and plan by local authorities and their partners. Predominantly housing associations, as well as the commercial sector and private market, was really high quality housing being built for those who could afford it.
7:18
And the last report touched on some real challenging issues for those people living in rural communities. Recognizing the housing for older people is not just an urban issue. Both the connectivity with social networks and the physical space, but also in rural areas around the link, with care, employment, as well as things like digital broadband, and perhaps some of the inequalities that exist around local health conditions.
7:43
So looking at those sort of issues, one of the things we've been thinking about very much is, how do we adopt those happy principles and move much more to incorporating those into innovative design, both in terms of the fabric of the accommodation, but also the types of products and services? So when we think about the needs and demands, it's not just about the bricks and mortars, it's also the glue that binds us together. So thinking much more around how that can improve ... Specifications, thinking about offsite manufacturing and modern methods of construction, as well as making the connection to building, management and other systems that control energy and energy efficiency, fuel poverty, affordable warmth, and enable those schemes, develop and sustain themselves.
8:27
Secondly, another key things around the design is about how we can support people being much more self management, self care. And part of this is around you, so, digital technology. We've seen rapid escalation of this over the last nine months with covert, especially as people using whatsapp and Facebook group and Frank screwed Facebook groups to connect. And we see that really linking back into, for further work. That's going to take place through all trapping inquiry, thinking about how that can transform care and support services. So that there's better interoperability between the way we design our homes. How we plan our future housing, as well as support people on the ground to receive the health care needs that they require.
9:10
My final slide is very much blue sky thinking.
9:14
It's really about how we can support independence, isn't going to be the way we look at how our, both our properties or design, but how we can create the infrastructure that supports us, through things like power packs to enable us to be more mobile to support our balance and movement.
9:30
That can be coupled with more adaptable housing to enables to orientate ourselves both within an externally. Can we look at the way that we can control the type of information of the housing managers for us? Do we have a Darwin account? It can look at the environmental home control systems, have that at the tip of your fingertips, or a wristband that enables us to have visual displays about the type of quality of combination of thermal comfort. Or when your hair was going to come and visit. So, those are all things I think it's going to be the older people themselves will be demanding much more, It may not be this generation, because I certainly will be the next. So, thanks for now.
10:08
Just before we move on to David Pendle, who's going to talk to us about planning and location as I've got David Becker and Jeremy Together and those involved in the Happy Principles from the very beginning is what can you kind of share with us briefly in terms of how you've seen things change since the initial report where we are now?
10:32
I don't know which one of you wants to go first. David, you're on mute.
10:38
If I go first Paps, just to say that the brief I was involved in the original brief, for the report.
10:46
And the assumption was that the research team would have to go outside of the UK to find the examples that we needed. In order to galvanize the panel and to coming up with making some suggestions that, we knew there were 2 or 3 really good schemes in the UK.
11:03
But we knew that they weren't university suitable and they didn't necessarily deal with where much of the population, the first live, which is in places like sort of small towns. So we have to go looking outside of the UK because they literally wasn't anything to benchmark here. Now, if you were to do the same report today, that would be no budget in it. And for foreign travel, that would, you know, I'd like to remind everybody, we stop company chief executives in Toronto, edges, another just to make sure that they did go to places like Copenhagen.
11:38
Don't even make some really good for. And so over 12 years, we've seen a lot of the learning applied from mainland Europe back into the UK. And that includes things like to use greater use of balconies and Tech, access better ventilation. space and orientation on scheme the use of green space thing, the other side is the adoption and adaptation. I was I was hinting at, in my short oversight around technology, as well in the home. So, again, Those are sort of things that, I think are lessons that. We were able to learn from both local authorities and their partners, the social housing movements, in Europe, but also a large number of private developers who saw this as a real market opportunity.
12:21
Thanks, base, so, think we can see that we've come a particular distance, certainly, not far enough. So, coming on to co-location and planning, David, can you, can I just pick up with you, How do you think that we can actually unlock the sorts of accommodation in the planning system? There's obviously a high demand for it, and yet it seems to be very difficult to get local planning authorities to actually understand potentially what the product is, and actually giving consent for it to be built. From a planning perspective. How do you see that?
12:57
Yeah, thanks, Lu, and good morning, panel members. And listeners. You're absolutely right. There is a problem. And David, and Jeremy, if both just talked about the steps that have been taken in the last 12 years. And in his opening address, Jeremy was talking about the scale of the problem, if we can call it, not the scale of need for. Just touch briefly on the way the planning system works, and give you a whistle stop tour. We have a panel that system in the UK where local authorities are required to understand their strategic need for housing, specifically, understanding how, how many homes they should provide, and through their local plans. And they're supposed to have an understanding of the needs of different types of community, different groups within the overall figure. one of the things that, that is readily apparent, and we all know, when we read in the newspapers, the National target for 220,000 homes a year, and that's a total figure.
13:54
And, indeed, coven are currently working towards that, changing to 300,000 times a year. And of course, local planning authorities, right?
14:04
Local plans that the wrestled with.
14:08
and they wrestle with the total number, and they take a look into affordable housing. There are very few of them, who go beyond that, to look into the needs of all the groups.
14:16
So, we've got this gap in this planet system, and you mentioned location, and what effectively happens is the providers unit, attempt to deliver schemes that meet this need. And they are doing that against a backdrop of Tumblr system, this planning for mainstream housing. So already, there's a gap in terms of what local authorities are thinking about, what perhaps we might expect them to think about and our products that we're talking about here. So, in essence, you could have the best product in the world. But if the local authorities and tuned into this part, this component group, and they're not tuned into the type of product that we're offering, it will make no difference to their decision making. And if it's in the wrong location, in other words, a settlement. Whether they want to see growth or on the edge of a settlement. Where, and they've perhaps got restrictive policies quite simply, you know, they're going to be saying now, is they will do to any other housing Type M So. So there was sort of 2 2 things to take away from this.
15:16
There are all sorts of very good at it, the ones that are very good at it, and put that plan meeting moment. Local planning authorities to speak to the local Housing Authority, and we can play a role enough, You know, we can, we can attempt to influence that debate. You know, we understand the national figures, and there's no reason why we shouldn't be promoting local understanding of, of evidence led figures to a local authority. And, indeed, as we then move into understanding where, where, we think we want to locate new developments that achieve this? This is the moment where the Happy Principles have a really close along with, with what used to be called Building For Life Principles, which, go beyond just pure products and start to think about site context, and how you integrate with the surrounding area. And then we can start to build a narrative that covers each of those different sort of hierarchical components.
16:09
Of the argument, total need need within the area, type of product that we're proposing and how it will meet why this location is, is correct. And an assessment against things, like happy and buildings, for life, which is now healthy. Places. And show that narrative. And the understanding for why this is a good thing. Now, I will just say, whilst local authorities don't always understand that they are also posting.
16:36
So, there's two parts to this. Is the evidence that does it. And then this finding the right audience. And finding the right audience within a local authority is essential for getting your message across, not the best message in the world. If you don't find the right audience, and that can cause a problem. Most local housing authorities have somebody who holds a portfolio that is interested in this. And it's about getting that person to understand and getting the case officers for applications to understand. But as I mentioned at the start, putting that in a strategic contest, again, a local authorities to understand as part of their plans. So twofold attack in all honesty. And it is difficult, but we are seeing progress over time.
17:16
That's brilliant. Thank you, David. So if we come on to the point about the design and quality, we turn to the other, David. Sorry, It's a bit confusing.
17:29
What, what actually works, do you think, David, what have you seen that's in the public domain now in the UK? that works really well, both at local authority level, and also in terms of the general public? And what are the opportunities out there for this sort of aspirational living?
17:50
I think the interesting overlap between what David just said about the planning system and the reasons for why some schemes are successful, and some aren't, is that we need to address the location of where housing for seniors goes. The historic problem in the UK was it was something that local authorities would often plan and, you know, without any sense of irony, located on the edge of town, near the civic and the crematorium.
18:21
And you can see this when you visit places like Milton Keynes and you drive around on the ring roads. And you see the signs actually make those connections. Sometimes it's three things appearing on the same sign, then that was 70 style planning, perhaps even 80 style planning.
18:36
So, the great thing, and that's beginning to happen, is that the developments that we're building for for over 50 fives are beginning to appear in places where people would have a lot of reasons who want to live very, very attractive sort of market towns. You think of everything that's best to say, in Britain, You will find the developers now targeting those, with apartments for seniors, rather than apartments for anybody else, and also we're catching them in a mixed in with communities. Which is really important. So you gotta look at the developments that are being built in places like Wealth from Forest or perhaps Lester, and they are being dropped into the busiest part of existing residential estates. Almost as a sort of focal point. And the way you might have, put, say, something like a church or community building, and at some point in the past, these now sit within residential streets, so that no one is dislocated from their existing community. I think that's a really important point. People are beginning to see these places as part of the landscape in which they live, rather than some strange multi-story block on the edge of town right next to something like the Civic dumb.
19:51
Really interesting. So, I know we've spoken before about issues about aging and not just about specialist housing, that also mainstream housing, or maybe there's a development that you've mentioned before. And Matlock, do you want to just talk a little bit about the benefits that that brings?
20:13
I can come to that, but I mean, just to pick up on Jeremy was introduced in the App, Your Boys. It's quite fun.
20:20
Suggest that you possibly all have heard before, but it's fun to go back to the original research, and remember what happened.
20:28
And essentially, DePalma for health.
20:29
And Jeremy said, We need to find out why there's such a huge resistance.
20:33
So anybody ever planning for their retirement, we need to find out why people fall into that two elements we build rather than aim to live in them.
20:42
And that was the sort of brief, It's a sudden I'm wrong, that no one aspires to live in these kinds of schemes, and that was seen as the option of last resort.
20:51
I started driving around with various people, looking at various schemes up and down the country, and even across a lot of the northern Europe.
20:59
And the one thing we began to realize is that lots and lots of people on continental Europe and, in particular, in places like Scandinavia, actually actively plan to move somewhere in the fifties and the sixties.
21:14
And they look to go relatively early, and they look to go to a place where they expect quite a lot of fun. You know, they built into these developments. Lots of facilities, like, say, for example, places where they literally play cards, bars, snoop, tables, everything you would want to have if you're out on a Friday evening or, you know, you've been doing something on a Sunday afternoon. So, these skills to build almost as places for people to be happier.
21:44
This began to inform the thinking in the report, because originally the report was expecting to say something like oh that that has a bigger role, their homes nicer or something like that. It didn't necessarily anticipate to come back with. What you need to do is plan for this active community where people to enjoy life because they're sharing their life with somebody else and becoming inter-dependent, rather than independent or dependent inter-dependent living side by side and sharing things. And we realize this is a key theme.
22:15
Actually made the name of the panel, which had been setup change because the original title was called The Panel For Innovation in Specialized Housing, which is you could say actually spells **** off. So it was always difficult but we changed the name of it to happy which says, Housing an aging population panel for innovation because we felt that was a key message schemes, right?
22:40
They will address all that issue of loneliness, all that sense.
22:44
Isolation, unfortunately, spooks, large numbers of people once they start working.
22:50
It's not suddenly necessary attributed to any particular age. It appears to arrive quite early, and that could well be why a lot of people in continental Europe were planning it as well.
23:00
Because I think generally, this seems to be slightly earlier retirement age, because many of the places we visited.
23:09
Do you see, the fixation that we have in this country with home ownership is also being a problem to actually getting people to right size?
23:19
It's an interesting question because, you know, the people who are moving now are often deliberately selling larger places in order to release equity for their offspring.
23:31
So people who might live in a large house, maybe 4 or 5 bedrooms, they will be looking to move sideways into smaller accommodation in order to release some equity that would have built up during their lifetime, and that enables sediments families move on. But, the problem that everyone faces, is that, historically, the apartments that were targeted, these age groups, didn't allow for people to continue the lives, that they felt they wanted. So, they didn't have a visitor bedroom for when your son or your daughter came off when whenever your grandkids came to visit you, which is so important for people at the center of this generation. So the idea that you would deliberately deprive yourself of being able to host any family visits was very dispiriting. You know, you you go back to the design manuals to the seventies and eighties. There was a major war being fought by architects at the time. To get the number of square meters that could be allocated to these types of homes. Up to about 35 square meters from where they were hovering around the time at about 25.
24:34
And then, the latest generation of housing, and it's not punitive province developers, there's lots of similar units being produced by some excellent ... Jobs, by Stoke City Council, and by lots of local authorities. These units are coming in.
24:50
It's sort of 15 to 20% bigger than the ones being sold to first time buyers or even, you know, city dwellers.
24:57
These are the best flats, typically now in any area. And, that is dealing with the fact that, you know, people would want to retain the freedom to have the family come and visit them.
25:08
I think that comes back to some of the things we were saying earlier about how the title design called .... And now, we'll explore a bit more, is it impacting on the types of offer that's available for older people, and people approaching older age and local communities? So they can aspire to have a better quality life, were not know, we're no longer building as much fuel the post-war generation we're now building for the rock'n'roll generation. And, you know, we're building for the pug soon as well. So, again, we're seeing different cohorts of people coming through. And if you look at some of those European examples of David referred to, they are very much around creating aspirational places where people can just have life. And in fact, age is not about the issue, it's about having quality of life in your community.
25:58
Yeah, good design is good design, isn't it? You know, and that's why it's readily apparent to me when I, when I read that, the happy principles, which, of course, are in the national planning practice guidance. You know, they sit very, comfortably alongside, or the design principles. And the reason for that is because good design is good design when you're trying to create a good place. And why would it be any different in, regardless if the group that you are looking at? one of the things I would just mention, though, you know, we've said, probably two times, now.
26:27
We've talked about, you know, older people being at the heart of the community and isn't absolutely right. You know, that you would expect to see people integrated, you know, and have a balanced community and to use the end of the to use the oft used phrase. And that's one of the reasons why I was talking, you know, Georgia, my, my sort of slow about trying to understand what the location should be. Not seeing this purely as a good product and something that is designed excellently, but understanding why it works in the location that is in and I think that that's really part is crucially important for that narrative that I was talking about. So so listening to the way to you and David have just described that, Jeremy, and I can see how you would promote this to local authorities and make them understand what it is that we're trying to achieve here.
27:20
OK, Can I just pick up on that?
27:23
one of the things we discovered in research was the towns, like law, in particular, the towns in Sweden.
27:31
They actually plan the seniors and developments to work almost as sort of, let's call them, responsible citizens in the town centers. When they create a new civic square.
27:42
They will put the senior housing development on the new Civic square.
27:46
And they will assume that people living in that development will be around a little bit more than perhaps those who go to work, to Kotlin wanting to community. And that there will be able to create that kind of, sort of natural surveillance at all, really successful urban design expects. But the other thing that they then know, if they're on that civic square, then you've got sort of captive market for the cafe. That needs to go on the civic square. Because those people can buy a cup of tea at 11 o'clock, two o'clock, where everyone else at work probably become, say, is, it's sort of a way that they actually plan a 24 hour community. So, that, by putting the seniors in the heart of it to seniors get stimulus, that they're also acting as custodians of the place in which they live.
28:30
I think we see that we do see that in the UK. On large scale development. You know, we, we do see that.
28:37
Whereas, perhaps different if you've got a local authority that look into it, distribute housing around their burrow, You know, on the edge of settlements to try and try and meet that, their overall need. It becomes harder to do that, because, of course, you're talking about a size of development. Simply won't have things like civics class. But I absolutely take, take, take the point that you've just made, and why shouldn't it be like that? And I think this goes back to how we, how we change the discussion at local authority level. When they're wrestling with these big numbers for the numbers of houses they need to deliver for them to move beyond simply a total number, and an amount of hectares that's needed to meet that need. As I say, there were some fantastic authorities that really have very close relationships between the local planning authority in the local Housing Authority. And they really do think about those two sort of people in place functions. But the real estate just simply aren't there yet. And so, you know, what you've just described, which is an absolutely perfect scenario, be something that does happen, but it doesn't happen often enough.
29:42
I didn't That, that lose what That Matlock scheme does, that mean, in the Backlog seen as a Cafe at Ground floor level. It overlooks a car park, which is next to this village, green, bowling, green, and things like that. That people living in apartments that are essentially keeping an eye out on the green space, below them, and watching it during the day, and in the evenings and sun. But perhaps, if they weren't there, that may well be where lots of kids decided was a great place to go and ... shovel.
30:14
I don't think about the model of Scheme in particular is bearing in mind that wasn't built for older people in mind. It's actually just general housing that's built to a high degree of quality with decent space gray location, with the facility in this case, the cafe and Bistro. Another example could be Rosemarie mentions in Kings Cross, in the region regeneration of King's Cross, right in the heart behind the railway station, is a fabulous extra ..., which echoes the ..., who's making about? How can we make sure these are very much both of the city center, urban location, but? also, an attractive offer for all the people? Because, actually, that would reduce transport requirements. If the walkable space has really good to impact on health and exercise, and has a broader, linked to just a housing need, It has a lifestyle and health needs, as well, which modeling neatly into. So, how do we build for a healthy life?
31:12
It's really interesting, isn't it? Because, up until a couple years ago, I was being asked to insert clauses in leases that actually stopped the younger generation coming into retirement living developments. Especially grandchildren where they know their clients are saying to me, We don't want the grandchildren coming in because it will disrupt everything going on. In the scheme Over. The last couple of years, we've been hearing a lot more about inter-generational living. And during, like, Kovac times, how, you can have kind of young people around you, if you're, if you're in, a development like that, who can offer support from, outside of the apartment, or outside of the home. But you can look after a, while she might be shielding or whatever. Do you feel? There's been a move.
32:00
Fromm, scheme's being very specifically age related, to actually age becoming less relevant, and that we can all live together. And perhaps that might lead to more aspirational living.
32:13
I think some of the planning authorities David was referring to before her quite proactive, have begun to sort of tradeoff sometimes around what might be described as affordable housing.
32:24
We're increasingly the percentage of homes, the awful social rent, all of being built side by side with housing that's targeted at a senior market, That can sometimes be also for social rent, a consensus, be shared ownership as seniors. And it can be market. So, for seniors, and there is definitely a trend of sort of action planning authority trying to split the, sort of, 200 unit development. That was all a single user group into a variety of Music Roots. Circular 698 for 25 years has been telling them, as a percentage of that needs to go to as an association since a happier more, and more of that percentage tense. Go to housing associations that do with seniors. And, I think, that's, you, know, that is creating a more balanced community.
33:11
If you look at some of the work in Hackney with a hand over hand to hand over, and we'll do a little dance, and have done for lime. Lime tree. Cool. Actually, if you look at the facade, very subtle differences the things that tells us the data for older people is, because the balconies a wider and deeper than, actually, crazy external space for social interaction, but it's just very subtly how we can change the appearance, and in this case, the facade.
33:42
Very interesting. David P, do you have a few on whether or not you're seeing more kindness, potential applications for multi-generational living, or you're still seeing kind of accommodation being built specifically for an age class?
34:02
I think it'd be wrong with me to say that anything other than the vast majority of development that takes place is for mainstream housing.
34:10
You know, the affordable housing. as a proportion of that, David just made reference to that happens. And the system, you know, maybe over the last sort of 15, 20 years, has got used to that. Do you want to see more of a greater number of applications for, for, for later living schemes? Yes, to do want to see huge numbers that would tackle the time to think is that Jeremy was talking about, no. And that's that's why we've got the shortfall of 400,000 that was referred to. There has been a sea change. You'd be wrong with me to be too pessimistic about it but have we done enough known.
34:49
And I think that that's the reason really, why, why I mentioned this sort of disconnect between what we understand to be the situation at the national level and what may or may not happening in various different local planning authority is about that. And so you know, a long winded way, really saying the vast majority of stoves, mainstream housing, open market and 20 to 30% affordable housing, you know where that that's possible.
35:12
And Specific group, housing, you know, follows on after from that. You mentioned a multi-generational accommodation.
35:23
I would say, if I was brutally honest about ...
35:27
Cove, it has resulted in some developers thinking about how to provide live workspace in the product.
35:36
I haven't heard any any any volume builders talking about how they provide multi generational space in their product. But we do see that among smaller developers, in places like, typically less. For example, where this where there's a history and legacy of multi-generational living. We do see that. But again, just just like the native in product, not enough of that.
36:00
So just a question for David B, on design. What are you seeing in terms of changes to design that's really interesting to provide more flexible space?
36:12
Size, size is the key thing in storage.
36:16
So, if you look at all the data, it will ask Buddhists have about what the purchase to say about what they build. They get much, much warmer reviews from their purchases and most people will concede.
36:28
The one thing that always get beaten on, the amount of space for storage, you know, with the majority of homes built with that, she nothing that allows you to put anything of any size away. And so, let's use next year.
36:42
Now, you kinda get a household with a lifetime of memories to move from, say, 95 square meters or three bedroom house, into a 60 square meter apartment without storage. They will not do it.
36:56
They cannot, physically, they really, she got twice as much material goods you could get into that space. So, what is happening is that the size of the eponymous is stretching you go to places, like, Great nights. And, in Cambridge, you see apartment buildings being built with 160 to 250 square meter floor spaces.
37:20
I mean, this is absolutely extraordinary when you walk into. And they're essentially the equivalent of about five bedroom house on a single level. And there are nearly all been bought by people to retire into their expectation is that have 2 and 3 bedrooms, because they might want to have the whole family company Christmas, and they've got a dining table that sits potentially 8, 10 people. So that's a major, major, major change, which you see on the first time I saw these units was about 10 years ago. I'd never seen any before ever. Ever found an accommodation like that, because when it was being built by, say, the Grosvenor estate, or some kind of organization of the very, very long-term view and now, it's quite commonplace.
38:05
Think what we're seeing, actually, coming back to one of your earlier questions, is both a need for a designated housing. So where is purpose built for older people? Because it meets the housing need, The David referred to, indeed, perhaps the social can aid as well for managing people who require some hands-on care, personal care support. But what David's also talked about in terms of making that case is also about age inclusive housing. And that is basically how we can make this a more mainstream a friendly approach. And that's the attractiveness, because actually that also means that people will want to move. The will also create free up housing and they'll be a vacancy chain. And address also, some of the supply side issues. The ... was saying about, in terms of how are we going to create a 300,000 new homes in our local communities, one option will be somehow, we re, perhaps imagine the town center. David talked about live work.
39:02
I can see some of the office space and some issues around how we rethink about the role of the city center, and how we may have silver cities, which is very much around older people, sort of being part of those town square developments that David was talking about earlier.
39:19
Is a sort of interesting theory about the housing market, and the way that a lot of works. And, you know, David just mentioned our older people in the House full of memories and full of, full of, you know, physical memories as well as well as, you know, and things that they did, they recall happening there. That don't want to leave, from the environment because of that. And that means that there's a, there's a whole proportion of the housing stock which is underused, you know, to put it bluntly.
39:51
And this theory called the dome, the tau manifesto where demand is for first time buy properties, and the need to try and then unlock the situation. Once people become older where they're in an oversized stock and everything else in the middle takes care of itself if you can swap those 2 those 2 things.
40:10
Of course, mainstream products are generally aimed at that middle, that middle section, where people, you know, people can afford to move that the young or middle years family into a larger home and products. mainstream products geared at that. You know, but it's actually the two things either either end need dealing with, just found that really interesting. That's a really valid observation and in fact, it's something that was picked up and Delta P two and P three report that we often create helped to buy mechanisms for the first time buyer. But actually, we should also create, helped to move packages for the last time move up. And so, again, that might be something else that we can explore as part of this morning series.
40:54
Really interesting, OK, So, we're running out of time, great discussion. I'm just gonna come to each of you. What do you see as the future? in terms of, do you see it being positive D C, the public starting to understand better what is out there and what they could move into to get people moving a bit earlier?
41:14
If I start with you, Jeremy, my crystal ball is always my glasses half full, if, I'm really honest. I think there is a real appetite to get the right offer in place, but I think it's still going to take some time to transit, to enable people to make those real choices. I think it's still taking time away, where the product works well, they do fly off the shelf. So, again, I think it's about both the quality of the off of the quality of the design, but also the quality of the package that's available for somebody to make those decisions.
41:50
David Panel: Yeah, I mean, I agree with our saying, say anything groundbreaking. There's so many different, I think. What we, what we may see, you know, as we move through the next year, 18 months, two years, of course, is the economic power of the older generation, you know. We know the product's good.
42:12
We know the products. Good. You know, and certainly aren't saying my parents and laws, content venue to live a good life during this period. Whereas with equal, the younger people might've been cautious. So, from that point of view, that it may actually be the case that we see, you know, a segment of the economy being underpinned by, the ability for, for, you know, older patron. We talked about silver silver cities near the affluent gray section of the economy, and helping the housing market to turn. So, from that point of view, I would say, if we can take and this specialist area into the mainstream debate, there's no reason why we shouldn't see more change than we've already seen to date and we know that should continue to happen, despite covert worries.
43:00
Thank you, David.
43:04
I think we've arrived at the point where people are beginning to lose the memory of when they first visited, what they would refer to as a specialized or an older persons, housing development. And we will do that, sometime in the seventies, and eighties, or something. And we got that sort of, the smells from the enclosed corridor, or the communal kitchens no. Ventilation to shed. air is just, that whole feeling, that you were moving through, space. That was somehow, you know, relatively tight, dismal, that Lots of people. Very lonely, potentially. Very sad.
43:36
When we are moving away from, the people are beginning to see, for the first time they make a visit NASA? Is it, you know, Uncle John, who happens to live in this scheme and shell? Nobody? can tell you enough about how much she enjoys standing on the roof. Terrorist Watch in the whole of the Melbourne hills: or, or, you know, going in the bar with this, Make some things snedaker, whatever. That, that will help a lot.
44:00
And I think the sense that the perception of these places will change, and dramatically change, over the next decade, will support what David's already referenced here, which is the spending power of this group. This group can actually spend everybody in the housing market. The only reason why to ask Buddhists have been able to continue with what they do in the last decade is because it helped to buy, which has been targeted at the groups, which otherwise would be excluded from the market. And they were to redirect to far more of the investment into the ....
44:32
I think after helped by drifts away, we'll see a lot more focus again from the Big Stock Exchange companies on, on targeting a sector, which is almost guaranteed to be able to buy what they build.
44:46
Fantastic. Well, thank you to my panelists. That was a really interesting discussion on, I do hope everyone has enjoyed that. So just to come to a close, I'd like to invite everybody that's listening today, just to our live webinar that we are holding on the 17th of, November at, 4 0, PM with ... March. Easy from Guild Living On. That webinar will be talking about what the UK needs to do in order to future proof later, Living does. Nothing more to be done now than, to say thank you, again, to the panelists. So, to David, but back to David Pendle, and to Jeremy Porteous, and I hope you've enjoyed watching.
45:32
Thanks, everybody.
45:33
Thank you.
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