Welcome to today's SHMA Talks, Platform Chair, Commentary Opinions, and inspiration from her inspirational leaders, an influential leaders across the UK. This week marks 100 days of block down across the UK, this milestone that we want to Mark. Shakespeare March tonight, Why? Because we were wanting to help businesses look to the future and plan for what the new abnormal could be, as we all start. businesses start getting back up to speed. People start getting back into offices and the economy's gets going. We've gone through a huge amount of unknown over the last hundred days, from the initial phase of business is trying to survive to now 100 days later. This is really starting to think about how they thrive and how they start to embrace the opportunities that this is presented to us.
This is a chance for us to reflect and capture some of their different perspectives and shared experiences of people both over this time, but also from their previous experiences. But also, start to think about how we adopt best practices. Now really is the time for positive change. And I talk today is all about culture, because obviously right now countries, the thing that law firms are focusing on, Which brings me all about today's talk, which I'm delighted to be in conversation with two very special guests, Will be talking about how we maintain positive work culture beyond locked down as we look to the next hundred days, and I'm further beyond, my first guest is Sarah books. She's owner of adaptive, limited, adaptive, or consultancy firm who work with leaders around the world. On strategy, change, coaching, and emotional intelligence, open leaders develop skills, mindset, and capabilities.
Series go over 30 years experience in learning and development and 20 of those at a level, educated in business and organizational psychology. She helps people develop their leadership, emotional intelligence, coaching strategy, and change management. She's lived and worked in both Brazil and Italy and has a great global experience and a Director, a Director of an interior firm and online, luxury interior and home furnishings, but there's also run previously at cocktail bar, which I found out the other day. And I'm very much wanting to find out more about, especially in this heat. My second guest is Helen, hey, she's head of culture and talent here at Shakespeare.
Martin, I'm Helen has worked in the talent and people space for the last 18 years, working across a variety of sectors, including hospitality, international construction, and professional services. It's very passionate about organizational and talent development and enabling people to the right places to grow.
So, that's enough from me. We'll get into today's small talk. So, first of all, I want to come to you in a single sentence, Can you tell me what will define for me, what positive coaches, meaning to you? Yeah, that's actually quite an easy one for me because I'm very passionate about this topic.
So, for me, well, that's all gonna all organizations, rely on people pretty much to deliver what they're trying to, to deliver, whatever that is, goods or services. And for me, the positive culture is one that recognizes that, and therefore, just sets out to get the best from those people. That seems really obvious thing to do.
It's just absolutely essential, both for the people who work there, but also for the organization itself. So, yeah, getting the best out of people.
Helen, same question.
So, I think, again, quite similar to Sarah. I think the way that I would summarize, summarize it up as as better to get that. So, that's where, you're feeling challenged you, you're collaborating, you can innovate, and test, and work with each other to make yourselves. And your business better makes us wholeheartedly together better is probably where I put it as an option.
Thank you. So, so, if we think we're 100 days in, locked down, there's been a number of challenges for organizations. But what's been the biggest challenge for organizations from a cultural point of view, do you think?
So, can I come to you first?
Yeah. I think there's, obviously, this has been a hugely challenging time, and I think, making difficult business decisions in the context of that sort of getting the best from people can seem a bit counter-intuitive. So, for example, needing to follow people. Perhaps some organizations have restructured had to make some cost savings, and so on. And that starts to be quite challenging. Site counter-intuitive, we're trying to get the best out of people and yet, here we are making some decisions that really affect their livelihoods and potentially could still do that.
But at the end of the day, the organization needs to exist. And so I think that those leaders have been decisive, sauces, They can be in the circumstances. The ones. I've stayed true to the culture and really been able to retain the engagement of the people that work for them. Logistic that's been really, very important.
So, for you, in terms of, in terms of, Kind of. For, an organization. Is not sticking to your values, and keeping your values front and center, even in the tough decisions you've got to make.
Yeah. I think this is why it's so important, that leaders are transparent and honest, and even if they don't know exactly what to do, exactly what the future looks like, just to be really clear that that's the situation, where all enough things been changing so fast during this time. And so, it's difficult for leaders to be decisive, for DVT, definitive. let, say, at a moment in time because things have changed but to put as much certainty as possible.
And even if that, it's less than T then keep change, I think, is really important. And the organizations, I think, have come out, really retain the culture, the ones. I've just been really upfront saying, this is how it is. For example, I came across an organization where people's holiday holidays where reduced. So they normally had 100 type of, say, 25 days. And the organization took that down to 20 days. But they were absolutely transparent about it. Very clear about why they were doing it and why it was important. And also clear that as actually now in that particular sector, the upswing is coming faster than they expected, like getting back on track, that they will give those holiday days back. Should they be able to do so. That's for me how to retain your culture, be really open and honest with people.
Helen, what do you think?
I think from my perspective is, I think the critical point is taking stock at the very early days, having that strong culture and that strong identity of who you are as an organization really helps those. And we have seen that in those that have gone faster And being able to cope and adapt to it.
I think another key one is building on what Sarah said in terms of the transparency. Don't pretend to know all the answers. Be very clear on what you know now.
What you need to know about and when you come back to them, I think, that is it, again, it's very simple, but I think it builds people's understanding. It builds trust because it's even more important right now in terms of adapting. Not only have business is completely changed, the face of how they work and adapt, and the products they even produce, Roles have fundamentally changed as well. And they have changed for a long time in some areas as well. That all of that change, at the same time, takes a while to take stock, and come to terms ways, and also to be able to implement. But the quicker that, we can start to communicate and continue to do so. and continue to recognize the milestones that you've been on.
Also helps bring on people on that journey, as well, actually helps them contribute to the opportunities that we're seeing in front of us. We need to come together as organizations, and those that have leveraged. The voice of all of everyone in that collaborative, has made them come out of this better, and something that needs to continue as part of that culture.
Wouldn't say it's really interesting. You. Both talked about transparency, trust, and honesty, and communication. And one of the things that I've really seen is actually the one, the people that really stood out being the ones that I've also added, humanity, into the kind of the way that they approach things as well. That emotional retired it up so that when the iconic company who's the CEO of air-b.n.b. did an open letter about the things that they need to do. And the changes that they needed to make. But just in a, you know, really showing the impact it personally had on him, but what they were doing positively to try and support the people that would no longer be part of the business. Do you think there's an element of kind of, that emotion, and humanity and personality that needs to come through, as well?
I definitely do, well, I'm sorry, sorry, Helen, but a fee of one of the sort of clips on the news that really struck me the other night, was a small business owner who owned a couple of restaurants. I think, in, in the north of the north of the UK, and they were saying that they, just half of having to close down one of those restaurants, they just couldn't hang on. They were hanging on as best they could, but they just couldn't hang on any longer.
And, during the course of the interview on the news, they were the one of the owners, the gentleman just started crying and I just thought, wow, you know, that's when we know that that's the feeling. But to see it, I think was actually really important if heat of stiff, upper lip that I think we perhaps wouldn't have had the same impact. It's really it was really heartening to them to say that, to let go and his wife said that the, you know, these, these people are friends. We've known them for years, very, very challenging, and right for him to share his feelings at that moment.
I think for me, and one that really sort of touched me in terms of compassion, is that transparency? But the compaction was San Jacinto ahead in terms if she has criticized for showing emotion, I think now, it, particularly right now and actually seeing how she has led to a country. And the compassion she shares and the strength that that brings. And Galvanizes the population, I think only further reinforces the need for a move of aids and actually being braver and expressing how we're feeling. And I don't think we do enough of it within business. It's already starting to actually start to come out now outside.
So if we start to think about the actual people. So, let's move on from conveyed. And just think about now is the moment in time in the world. A lot of people now are choosing companies or really, really important for them to go work in. Companies that have a positive culture, very much talk about their positive culture. Why do you think people have made that shift.
So, Can I come to you on that?
Yeah. Because I think that people nowadays want want to want to go to work. If you sell me, They don't have to go to what you want to go to work. I want to have colleagues that I enjoy working with, an interesting tasks, and so on. I like doing, and so on. And, of course, that none of us have got jobs were all day long. It's interesting that we've all got stuff we have to do, but just thinking about job design, and the environment, the employee experience, which we know Will talking about is so important. And I think where organizations get that right, back, again, to the human factors disabled, surely, all of us want to enjoy ourselves. In the working day, we spend enough time. They're equally, I've seen examples where your organizations have tried to sort of tick that box, and it's just not. It's a good tool, for example, where someone that went for a fantastic recruitment process, and was just so excited to join the organization.
But the person's line manager, and I want to told them that they were supposed to be creating that experience for the first got there. So, all the hype and the recruitment process just didn't play out. And actually, I feel bad for that line manager, because that person was probably perfectly capable of winning of creating a great employee experience, but they needed to know about it. So, that, sort of joining up of the offer. If you like the environment that we're offering to people, it's just really important. And I'm just, sort of, massively, all about thinking about people's self-esteem. The higher the someone's self-esteem, the more closely that's much too high performance.
And, and also, therefore, high levels of productivity, which all businesses need. And we needed more than ever for the rest the share, really getting the most out, the people up for us, that comes best through high self-esteem. And high self-esteem also tends to be associated with good, emotional well-being. So it's just like a win-win situation for everyone.
Think it's really do, Pretty interesting as well, you use that, kind of, that reference point, because it is about being authentic as well, isn't it? You want to go out there and present your branded. House has heard me talk about this lots of times. There's other people. You know, a brand starts on the inside. You build internally, and then you express that externally. You can't go out and say, you are one thing, and not be true when an employee, or a client then comes and then experiences your brand. And, really, you know, when the rubber hits the road, it's got to be truly can't just be big fancy marketing spiel. For you. What do you think are the things that employees look to as a positive culture? What sorts of things they're looking at?
Want to be able to make a mark. So, it's not just, it's not just a job anymore. So, they're wanting to be able to see where they can make that contribution. They're wanting to see that they can have a voice that they can shape, but they can contribute. That balances the needs. And I think increasingly the understanding of the different five to forge working generations that you have within each company, all of their wants and needs a difference. And a company that acknowledges that, and gives individuals flexibility to be able to do what they need to, as well as giving their best in the roles that they have? Makes for a more positive environment, and far more engaged individual? That will go above and beyond, in being able to: what they want to be able to deliver, and how they would like to progress their career with you?
I think they need choice, as well, so you're not choice in terms of choice of the whole people experience as well. But, how people learn, and how people interact. Again, it no longer to some of the tools that we've done within HR, or how we support it, or people don't really fit for purpose. In this day and age, it's kind of throwing out all of the models, and actually starting again, I'm actually talking to individuals, I think, if they feel that they've got that voice to say, well, we're not feeling that this is working right now, let's have a conversation. How could it shape for the culture that we're feeling here right now?
And making it will fintech Only build that trust, but actually makes it from the, as you say, Ben. It's kinda, stick of rock, is the outside in, and then you've really hit it, then, in terms of that authentic culture.
So, you know, typically, culture. A lot of it is defined by workplaces, and in some organizations, they'll say, oh, we've got a micro country in that team and the culture in that office is different and all the rest of any very physically orientated in this kind of world that we're in right now. That's not possible. And, Sarah, I know you've talked about this idea of, kind of the pause button. Businesses have almost been sharpened take a breath and just waiting. Thinking this too shall pass, but realistically when the world is going to be a forensic change. So, so, in this new world of work that we're moving to, how do you still drive the positive culture, move away from being just about an office of physical environment?
Yeah, that's actually a really good point, I think, because I think that we've often assumed it is. In fact, for some people, one of the biggest sales for the employee experience as their funky office, with the ping pong table and a bean bag or two. But, overlays bit more to it than that. I had to sit on one of those bean bags at a meeting, in the impossible, then it wasn't the case experience, I have to say. But anyway, so I've got a bias against them. But the thing is, I think that, that, during this time, actually, it's becoming more and more clear that it's not about proximity, because people keep on talking about the distance that we are isolated and distance. But she my experience is that the intimacy and people's relationships has actually been haunts during this time.
Because, when you on the call, like, we are now, for example, you in my home, you, you can be introduced, my pets, my family members, You know, I can share with you the mug that I'm drinking out of, and all kinds of things that you wouldn't normally have experienced, particular, Particularly amongst teen. So, there's this sort of intimacy that's being created here that is more than even the you would perhaps get in the office. So, it's about, I think, what you're worried about this passing posting. I've just find that quite a lot of people have just literally press pause and said, oh, we'll just muddle along at the moment until it we will get back to normal. Which I do really think everyone's starting to realize, like this back to normal thing, it's just not a thing. If you say back to normal, for me, it implies you have not accepted the new situation, you've just paused everything, and just managing and making do.
And what I think that we need to think about is, so, I'll give you an example. Someone said to me the other day, Oh, well, you know, I used to really love my commute in the morning because I had 20 minutes or half an hour to clear my brain and sort of set myself up for the day. You know. And that's missing at the moment.
Said, Well, it doesn't have to be seeing at the moment. You can re create that sense of time to yourself in the morning before you start your day's work. Just needs a bit bit of imagination to recreate it. And that for me is taking your finger of pores and saying, Actually, I want to recreate that. Used to work for me and it works really well. And equally, and getting the best out of people. People say things to me like, Oh, well, it's much harder, just to have a casual chat with people over zoom or teams, or whatever. It's harder, it's not impossible, and it's about just taking away the constraints that we're putting out. So I was like, Oh, it's not the same thing. Now that isn't the same, but imagine if you If one day you started managing a global team, for example, you had to keep an emblem by M one in Sydney and another person in New York, you would need to figure out how to bring those people together as a team across culture, across time zones, across language barrier. And now that's just happening, but within the UK.
And so, we don't know. It can be done. We can done absolutely brilliantly.
But it does just take a little bit of thought and an acceptance that, this is, I think you guys call it new abnormal. This is the new abnormal.
I think it's very much about embracing isn't. Just leaning into it. And you're absolutely right. For me, my commute every day, you know, it could be an hour, hour, and a half and, and that was my thinking time. It was my prep time for the day. It was my kind of clear, my head get away from everything. I recreated that. I now go out in the morning and take the dog for a walk to clear my head. I wasn't able to do that before, because I was on a train at 6 0 AM. I'm now out walking the dog at 6 0 AM to reset my kind of my brain and my mindset today.
Love what you were saying there, around kind of cross territory, cross country working, and, actually starting to apply some of the learning from that. So, I, in previous lives in Canada, I worked across five time zones and territories, in Asia, multiple time zones, and territories, and even in the UK with European roles. And it is hard, and it's difficult you've got, as you say, the difficulties of different cultures, and dynamics and expectations, and times having difficulties and all the rest of it that come into play. But, actually, if you lean into that, knows it as difficult to know that it's a barrier And then all comes together as a team to try and overcome it. You can do some really exciting, interesting, and fun things together. I often say to people, to think of it like this. Imagine today was the first day of your new job.
This is how it worked. He wouldn't go, Oh, no, In the old days, it was great. Can't wait to get back to those days or anything. You just embrace it when you say, OK, this is how it works, and this organization, Right? Let me figure out how to now get the best from people with this situation.
So that's what, that's the sort of taking your finger holes.
I think, really, as needed, and needed quite fast now.
Great, so, let's start thinking, then, around kind of this new abnormal, this new future, taken our finger off the pause button. Helen, if we start to then think about leadership, What the leaders have to do in order to create a positive, working environment. Not positive working culture. In this new world, where some people will be at home, some people be in the office, in the, in the plant, whatever the, the organization is.
From my perspective, I think the first thing that comes to mind is about consistency. So, particularly, with the multinational, any sort of environment as well, that the consistency is key in terms of how you're communicating and the messages that you're wanting to gave. But then comes with that is you cannot be complacent either In the fact that we are surprised ourselves in the journey that We've all taken three business through the results of the pandemic, But actually the same thing that weren't dressed in March and April is probably not fit for purpose. Now.
Where we are now in later into the summer and actually being conscious of that and actually taking your people along with you and actually asking them, How is it being for you? How are you feeling about the changes? How is your mental well-being? How is your physical well-being? What's your work-life balance and really digging deep into those types of questions.
That's test ourselves, We surprise ourselves. So that's test ourselves about how we can actually, as leaders, make this better for the new abnormal. And I think by having that consistency in how you're interacting, the questions that you're asking and that continuous feedback loop and conversation, build that trust from an employee perspective, they're feeling listen to, but also, we're in it together.
And we're being authentic, in terms of how we're actually, waiting away through this, to create that new abnormal with no superficial plan of, this is where we're going and this is what it's going to feel like it's here and now, and we're rotating with it. Now, we're starting to adapt and we've done some sort of very simple things in terms of whether it's can use, I've started walking around my Where I live with my Spotify on because I miss my music. And that, I realize that's what makes me reflect, And I think by, starting to be able to also encourage leaders to be asking the questions they've never asked before, as, well, is, so, so important in how we actually build the culture for the future.
Because the old questions as well, of, how are you, do you think you're guessing, you're feeling satisfied in the work that you're doing then no longer really fit for purpose? They don't really service right now. And it's about that whole person coming to work, recognizing it and recognizing that the life that they have says, Sandra said earlier, is what we've been invited to a living room. You've been invited to one of my bedroom stairs, but what is that, what's that home work-life look like, and actually what does that mean to you and what can we do to support. I think plays back to sort of, just since I'm part around compassion and through that will make us better as leaders. To be able to lead that business forward and to have that buy in from from those, that work for them.
Yeah, it's a really interesting, you say. That was one of the things I'm trying to do when I talk to any of my team, is, first thing I ask is, we've tried to ask is, How are you? And then, when they give me the stock response, I say, Thanks for the stock response! How are you? Keep pushing on it because actually, you know, everyone's kind of just does the very clear pleasantries, especially on Zoom meetings and calls and things. And I, you really have to dig into it. That means that is fine. Just tell me, how are you doing? What's going on? What's happening at home? How, you know, we're all in a different world and in a different environment. And I do think there's an element of, you know, we've all got to dial up that kind of EQ and dial up, that humanity, as we were talking about before. And I said, You teach a lot and support people around kind of emotional intelligence. And how do you think leaders need to adapt their emotional intelligence as we move forward into the new new world of work?
It's actually a really interesting point, because there may be some people listening to that who has just screaming, like, Oh, yeah, but we've gotta get some, what, We've put it gets what. And this is actually, for me, all about getting what they think.
And emotional Intelligence, broadly speaking, is made up of two key factors: Self-awareness and self management, and there's a real danger at the moment, there's a lot of self-awareness going on and not much self management. What we need to help lead us to be careful of is they don't start to take responsibility for how people are fading. This is the individual's responsibility. So leaders could help and support and create environments in which people flourish. But individuals' grownups, the adults, they come to us. They make their own decisions. And so, this is about leaders being what? helping people become self-aware. For example, if you say someone, how, how is it going to be working at home, when you will most generational household and sort of touching on the corner of your bed to get things on? How is that you? And the person says, Well, to be honest with you, it's not good at all. You know, My productivity has gone down, I'm not feeling great about it. There's a real danger, Latest thinking they need to step in.
Actual fact, they just need to carry on asking those questions, saying, Well, what could you do? What could you do, and how can I support what you could do? So that it becomes a joint problem solving rather than this kind of rescuing sitting of those of, you know, the drama Triangle session stepping into the Dom and trying and doing some rescuing which isn't helpful tool and actually done, is damaging to people's self-esteem. So I think at the moment, for business leaders, there is a need to dial up the EQ, but it's not sympathy is empathy. And that's a huge difference, I think, and I think for some neat as I've heard some really wrestling with saying, Where is the boundary here with me? You know, asking how people are then, you know, Can I then get on with the job? But, you know, kind of trying to get the balance right. And that is a really good point.
And then the beginning, when we ran this sort of I call the crisis phase, we had to really think, how are we going to get the job done? People were flung into the households without proper arrangements, and so on. But now, as we're coming into this next phase, the need to be proper arrangement. So expectations around productivity and so on ... re-established but made clear, so that business can move forward.
So how do you implement?
So, with that drama triangle, then, because the analogy, and I think you've used it before, where people actually, they come like helicopter parents, where they will just come in, and they'll solve everybody's issues for them. And then that becomes exhausting for the leader, because all they're running around doing, solving everyone's problems, to stuff, then getting the cycle of yoga to solve a poor me. Here's my problem. Come and rescue me. Yeah, Actually, that Asking the right questions doesn't mean that you're going to solve the problem. It just means you're going to help them get solutions. So does that mean, then? And how was the last few more around this?
Does this mean then it's around coaching and supporting, and having different types of conversations to get people to the right solutions for them?
It does say, You know, for me, it's and it's also about signposting the conversations, as well. You know, whether it's a check in conversation, you know, how long you or even what are you doing in terms of what do you operate your short to medium priorities versus I think we need to have a difficult conversation, whether that surrounds you know, I'm finding it difficult in judging how your well-being is versus your productivity has debt, and what is. Driving that Have that honest conversation. I think it helps people know where they all and, it stops beating around the bush as well because it and particularly within this environment where you are so, remote. But, yet, so, close to be able to signpost these things helps the individual build that rapport as well? Over sort of distance to, to help build that trust and actually work with them to get that resolution?
And I think that's one key takeaway that I've definitely seen in the, in the last few months around, how, once you're doing that, and you becoming practiced, and actually being that coach to individuals, the complicated conversation becomes so much easier. And I think, also, a challenge, it's hierarchy to a degree as well In the fact that you, If there's No, there's no limit to who can have help have that conversation in terms of whether, how you're feeling or what you're working on, Because we all renamed in together? And actually, we're going to come out of it together. So, there is nothing necessarily off limits, in terms of the ideas that everyone can have to actually bounce off, or actually challenge each other on and positively challenge each other on that. That also leads to a time and a place to get me wrong within an organization. But there was an unlimited darling that down and actually coming together as one and sort of establishing as groups really to help drive that forward.
So for me, this is the, this might be really corny, but there's a bit of a Caterpillar analogy, where we kind of got into this is a Caterpillar we've got into our Christmas of Lockdown, but actually what comes out of that is very different. So, it's not going back to a Caterpillar, We're coming out with something really different and amazing, and that could be an ugly mouth or it could be a beautiful butterfly, And let's make it a beautiful butterfly. So, we've talked about trust, and we talked about trust a lot, and trust driving, a positive culture. So, if you were going to give some top tips, leaders around how they develop that trust in order to drive a positive culture, or, or just how they can drive the positive culture in their organization, what would they would a couple of key things be, that you would say?
Yeah. So, I would say that people come to us wanting to succeed. Well, each person may have a different definition of success. So, for example, the one end of the scale, you might have, someone whose definition of success is through the bare minimum of my cat and still get paid. And then at the other end of the spectrum, you may have someone who really wants to develop their career, or who loves their job so much, that they just want to do over and above. So, it's recognizing that, none of those things, the role, that just where the person is often in their life, and actually managing someone who's trying to, just get through the day, get paid, it can actually be quite straight, as quite straightforward thing, if you understand the person, and that's what's making them take equally. Personally, I like everyone to be on fire, so I'm always looking for the angle that really gets their attention.
But, nevertheless, the best way forward is to start looking for what people can do, and how they can play to their strengths. I was running a workshop the other day with the board of a multinational organization based in Canada. And I was talking about the strength based approach and really getting at those subtle senior people. Start thinking about the strength They see in each other, in their teams and calling those straight out. You know, when you sort of notice your enemies. You think my colleagues always does a really good presentation. It's a really good explain of quite complex issues. We often think it, but we don't actually say it. And it's actually starting to have those strength based conversations.
And once you get into that whole strength based approach, you can then have difficult conversations. So, easily, so straightforward because the relationship with bail being built. It's really important for people to know that their manager gets them, the manager sees them, their leader, of, the organization can see what they're contributing, the value they're bringing, and when that clicks into place than, these up, and let us know such thing as a difficult conversation, it's just an adult exchange, where both of you are trying to succeed. And, therefore, it's coming from the right point of view, in some organizations. And needs to be a lot of work on that strength based approach before we get to the next stage. And, if you try to move too quickly, they start having challenging conversations with, people becomes demoralizing. And the person that she doesn't usually respond of, almost all feedback is appointments affair, because it tends to demoralize people, and therefore, they don't respond to it. So the strength based approaches it work.
Yeah, thank you. So, I'm gonna wrap up with a final question, because we are running short on time. So, we're 100 days into Lockdown. What's been your biggest personal learning that you're going to take forward and that you would share with other people?
From being a very, very big people person, passionate about people, but also feeding off people.
I'm actually loving this. I went in hating, rebelling, kicking, and screaming. I have got to know my team and my colleagues and everyone, I work with so much better. I understand them better. I think the performance We have seen in the organization has Excel's from that embracing.
And I think it's just taking that learn, didn't take those barriers away that you are mentally building up smashed through them and you won't surprise yourself. Because you don't need to, you know, You can. And I think that's the takeaway, you know, you can and we can change the way we approach business. Or the way we change P M approach sort of how people deal so quickly and so quickly For, The better. It's achievable. So, yeah, you can, and it's proof.
Sarah, what about yourself?
I think I actually agree with quite a lot of hadn't just said, I think. What really surprised me, I think, is this move towards virtual workshops that we will see 100% doing everything virtually.
And I always knew it was possible, obviously, had done it before, but the success of this virtual worlds, as actually surprised me, particularly in the strength of relationships, I was running a workshop for some academics from the Columbia University. That's one of our clients. I met them for an hour and a half, and on the second time, I met them, the second, an hour and a half, which was six weeks later.
When we saw each other, we were all like, like, we're all excited to see each other. and sort of think how that, how could we already met each other fell out of the great. Thank you so much, Sarah. And I'll be my guest today on tomatoes. I absolutely love talking to both of you. Reason I love doing these things, because I get to learn something as well. So, thank you both for that for everyone at home. As well as, well, I guess everybody is at the moment, you can read more upstairs views and insights on how LinkedIn. And also, some of their articles on the Adaptive ... website, links will be in the description, to check those out. On LinkedIn, the more of the same as well. If you enjoy today's episode of small talk Shakespeare ... platform to share commentary, opinions and inspiration for the most influential leaders and experts across the UK, envisage modal co dot UK, subscribed to get access and view more. And including a number of other talks, and we'll be back again soon, Thank you very much.