Later Living: Role of technology in the later living sector

Andrew Hartshorn, Partner - in association Housing LIN
3 November 2020

Whilst there are obvious challenges which arise from an ageing population, there are also significant opportunities for the property industry. Technology is ever changing and can be a key component of helping people live better for longer.

As Later Living providers become more reliant on digital technology, it is important that legal and compliance rules on data handling and data protection are in place.

During this webinar Andrew Hartshorn, Partner at Shakespeare Martineau will update on data protection considerations, including:

Consents and data sharing
Internal processes
GDPR compliance
How to report data breaches
Jeremy Porteus
Jeremy Porteus
Director at Housing LIN
Louise Beard
Louise Beard
Coastline Housing

We will also be joined by Louise Beard of Coastline Housing who will talk about the fundamentals behind their Click and Connect offering, how it was implemented and how this has enhanced the quality of life outcomes of their residents.


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Webinar transcript

(Please note this is auto-generated and un-edited)


Good afternoon, everybody. And welcome to the latest in our series of seminars about the later living sector. Today we're going to be looking at the role of technology in the sector. My name is Luis true and I'm the head of building communities at Shakespeare Mark tonight, specializing in affordable housing and most particularly housing with care. I'm joined today by P Raleigh who is the Community Investment Manager from Coastline Housing Association and she will be taking us through an app that they have been working on the Court click and connect. I'll also be joined by my partner and colleague, Andrew Hartshorn, who is a specialist in Data Protection.


And we will also be hearing, from Louise feared also from Coastline housing, who is going to be talking to us about the impact that they have seen on Cove age and connectivity with the residents over the last seven months. Louise, I should say is the director of housing assets and communities there. So just by way of an introduction, technology is not necessarily an age related topic per se. But when you are getting older and it's physically harder to get out and about technology, becomes more important to keep people occupied fulfilled and also positive.


If we just take a look at some of the statistics that came out of the research such studies by Aston University on behalf of extra cash out of trust, they were able to show that by moving into housing with care, the residence. So quite an improvement in things such as memory and cognitive cognitive cognitive abilities. It showed a delay and age related changes in frailty. There was a 14% reduction in depressive symptoms and a 23% reduction in anxiety symptoms, purely as a result of removing some of the problems connected to social isolation. So, without further ado, I'm going to come to be first who's going to take us through some slides about, can connect the technology that they've developed to keep their residents connected.




Thanks, Dave. And, I'm here today to talk to you about coastlines response the pandemic and our use of digital technology.


Meaningful, sustainable connections within our communities to address issues of socialized isolation.


The focus will be Connect Project, and how it enabled us to reframe the nation of vulnerability within our communities, particularly with reference to our older community members.


Some background context cosine housing. You've got 5000 homes across Colombo. You can see from the map quite widespread, and vacation, and a mix of small villages and towns, often very verbal, medication.


I say people who live there experience difficulties with kind of limited transport and issues of social isolation, already problematic, and it has always been quite challenging for team and myself to create meaningful, sustainable projects, are more women, more remote locations. And I'm part of our housing stock mics. We've got on extra care scheme, which is one of any three incomparable until say, Hey, this facility and with 18 crisis rooms and 50 supported units.


So when we're thinking about addressing isolation, we cannot focus on doing that in the most inclusive.


When possible to meet the needs of already diverse communities.


And so, whilst you can see from the photo that's, and Kevin, they're often picture postcard and we also find 10% in recent annual customer survey responses, People have said that they experienced dailiness of self reported learning as to us, as their landlord, and said, the lived reality that people are experiencing is often far towards integration.


And that's evidenced in embassies in multiple deprivation, which in 2000, in 19 92, the ...


continues to have 17 neighborhoods in the top 10%, most deprived areas in England.


These are a high proportion of our customers left.


So for a couple of years now, one of our key strategy commitments, customer first access and inclusion strategy, it's been around digital.


inclusion is a lot, And I, E two is access of services to those who are digitally enabled, ...


capacity of colleagues to get more specialists, support those who aren't.


And this has led to an increase in digital engagement with them.


And a community led E M space conceptualization of the coastline conversation, which was designed to ensure that our customers can feel connected, have, they're saying, get involved, irrespective of their geographic location.


Initially, the ambition for this was online and face-to-face interaction with our customers. But more recently, because of the dock.


That's been largely online.


So as you can see here, from the past three years worth of customer surveys, it has been a real increase in digital engagement with all my coastline, despite the relatively small increase in the number of people who've got internet access.


So 5% into access increase some inside of the 20% increase in app usage, and that enables our customers, too.


11 to count, pay their rent book, repents based queries and access information.


So, we were aware that there was perhaps, increase desire and capability for this interaction. And we started looking at the demographics associated with this. And feedback from customers.


We found that of the 2110 users we've got.


And 15% of those are 55 to 65 years old, 9% to 66, 75 years old, and 3%, or 75, we felt like this was challenging, perhaps, existing stereotypes about older base Healing. And the technology and digital interaction wasn't a way they wanted to.


Um, third of our users entitle them 4665 age bracket.


I'm wanting tending over 66 years old.


And so, alongside the apps that we have around payment and the human past, we've got a product called Smart nine touch and leave customers can use.


And then that's been encouraging disengagement by providing a tablet for our customers and addressing that, Perhaps some people don't have access kit.


And we've been working through, since the antenna can't, really, to HAVA this energy around digital engagement.


And we think the benefits of strategy that we put in place are both ourselves, but also for our customers.


So in March, and when, obviously, when it's locked down, OK, sign.


And our colleagues have made over a thousand phone calls to customers between March and July who are identified as being potentially vulnerable, We were checking to see whether they had access to food, whether they had access to medicines, they need it.


And the thing. Cause the content of these angles led to colleagues quick enough, Customers were chatting to old hobbies and taking up new skills.


Where the impetus for bangles, if anybody around checking on vulnerabilities, We were really strongly hearing back there.


There was enough strength that they haven't enough community cohesion, say. And click and connect as our project was born.


And started with discussions with a couple of different customers about model railways and their passion for motorways.


And we realized that actually we had vulnerabilities around knowledge gaps, and we weren't best case to support those customers and to have conversations that matter to them, We started thinking about how peer supports can play a really important role in addressing loneliness and isolation through the pandemic.


I started to consider how technology can play a role, being the vehicle to make that happen.


So we took a strength based approach, highlighting the skills, capabilities, and expertise across our communities.


We decided that the easiest way to, to launch the projects on Facebook, because we found that a lot of customers already using it, it's very familiar platform.


And we could focus the work around people already interested in what they were talking about, what they wanted to be doing.


Empty mateus gateway, the energy is.


So if the energy was with model railways, that's why we went. And it's fantastic.


We have customers who have such a wide range of interests, all getting in touch with each other, talk about what mattered to them at that time.


And on the surface, people seem to just be talking about how they're passing time to avoid boredom.


It became apparent that these activities were also setting to reduce feelings of anxiety, increase mental health and well-being.


Participants really noted that connectedness that they gain through being involved. It's really beneficial for them.


Project also break down barriers between colleagues and customers as they connect to data shared passions. I had the executive team and Board members getting involved, demonstrating how much more we had in common, or perhaps is acknowledged within our communities.


And as the project was customer led, it was established in such a way that it can be flexible and adaptable to changing priorities and needs.


I'll show you now some of the things that came out.


So emerging themes and came through the project, I think it's like arts and crafts.


Knitting Crochet, pets, nature, photography, tearing, and of course, that's the Model Railway.


So we really use the project as a vehicle to address social isolation, We found this more impactful than specific training and digital upscaling.


two projects aimed at social isolation.


Many of the participants had basic IT literacy skills, and they said it didn't, but when it came to engage with us to improve their skills to participate.


We also found that many of the participants would never have identified as being eligible for specific loneliness projects. They didn't really want to talk about.


Safety purposes, really got people connected, But it also got people into a position where they were challenging themselves to take digital steps that they hadn't taken before, which takes them online. So I took some things.


People telling them expect they needed press Next once people got the hang of it.


A real sense of boost of confidence and independence in that digital Jenny, as we began to realize the power of the connectedness that the project is gracing within our communities, we started to think about how we can make it longer term project. Rather than just being reactive to the initial isolation belted locked down, we felt like we could maybe grow this into a project, had a longer term future.


As we continue to adapt to new ways of working, livings, supporting communities to thrive.


We're focusing on moving to can connect to our coastline conversation platform to continue to grow alongside its social media presence.


A lot of our customers have migrated to the new platform, along with the project. 


OK, fine conversation is hosted on an XML, has features such as forums, blogs, quick polls, and News Feed, and enables customers, colleagues, members of the Executive Team and Board to interact on issues that matter most within our communities.


In many ways, the Case nine Compensation Platform is replicating for now, the kind of conversations that would have been happening, and face-to-face meetings and customers have told us, it's really important to them to still be able to interact the wide range of colleagues in that way.


It also has the prelim function of, if a customer highlights a passion or interest skill, we're able to enable them to connect with other people with similar interests, and put structured around what might be useful within these conversations.


Example, we have some excellent Gardner's across our communities via FaceTime conversation, have quantity. It could run a poll to find out if anybody else would like to come together to perhaps funding for resources for green space projects.


So this is getting customers who live in very remote, far away, communities, talking about something that could be beneficial to both communities, and working together to make that happen, the real grassroots, asset based community work accustomed to that i-phone.


And I think what's happened as a result of this, is that we're getting people who never normally would have connected to create genuine connections.


I'm hoping it's going to lead to a library of people that customers can refer to, ask questions of, if they have queries about their own communities, so that wagon practices really worked well.


It can be shared and replicated elsewhere, have a wider benefit than just in that very small, local community.


We are, of course, aware that some customers aren't able to access the Internet, or don't even have an interest in doing, say, to address this in future, I think ... Project would like to run workshops and events centered on these themes.


Went in a pig's interests and passions have emerged to connect people with others, share those interests as well.


We're also looking at ways to ensure that people don't feel confident with their digital skills, can access training in schools and to gain that confidence and gain these capabilities.


Coastline has had a hunch ...


we've been able to get kids to customers who use, we've never owned a tablet or smartphone, Ambrosio, we've arranged for customers whose kids are spoken to get it repaired, and he's half worked, which is about reducing barriers and that's definitely going to be key concepts have this digital engagement project.


Let's take a very individualized bespoke approach and they pass incentive to act to make sure that whatever the issue is, we began to study it from the customer's perspective and trying to come up with a solution.


Often this means finding a customer and talking them through how to use Skype or how to use the internet to search for something in a local area.


We found that the benefit of taking that small amount of time to have these initial phone calls, or by referring to our digital volunteers, as amendment customers, have then been able to engage either on Facebook or on a case on conversation, feel really empowered to have a say in their communities.


And I think, um, where we thought we were starting A project, it was about how you passing the time, explaining something much more than that, but you can have anticipated, without the digital aspect of it, enables connectomics many people.


If you'd like to find out more about it, you can see things, a customer circulated back into our Coastal Communities group and we can e-mail myself, my contact details on the slides or get involved at Coastline Housing TopCoder, OK.


I was interested to hear how other people are running projects to increase community engagement as they say, happy to have a two-way conversation about that.


Thanks. Be thought was really fascinating and the results are really quite impressive, something you should be really proud of having achieved within your organization. And next, we're going to come to my colleague, Andrew. He's going to talk us through what needs to be put in place when using technology, and data, and doing any form of, kind of, project, similar to what has happened to Coastline. Thanks, Lou. Good morning. I'm under HUBZone partner in the commercial technology team here at Checks we Martina. When a client comes to me and says, I'm looking to a really exciting project, and it's my job to make life really difficult for them and to make sure that they comply with, in particular, data protection laws.


Obviously, a couple of years ago, we had the GDPR, the General Data Protection Regulation come into force, which has changed significantly, how you need to think about your use of data, personal data when you're doing a project of this nature.


So I thought on the slide five do's and the don'ts that you need to do or not do when you are doing a project of this nature.


I think the first thing to do when you're doing any new project, to make sure that you remain GDPR compliant, is to understand the impact that that project is going to have on how you process personal data within the organization.


Understand what new data you're collecting.


How are you going to process it?


What's the legal basis of processing? Who gets to see it, where it's stored?


How only keep it for, and, how would you make sure that you can deal with pesky things like Subject Access Requests, if people want to, to obtain a copy of their information.


GDPR requires that we feel carrying out processing that's likely to have a high risk to individuals, that you carry out a data protection impact assessment.


So, you need to work out first, whether there's likely to be a high risk to individuals on a project like these. The answer's probably not.


But if you're being more invasive your, if you're collecting more data about individuals, if you're collecting sensitive data, then there's more likely to be a high risk to individuals.


And if there is a high risk to individuals, then you need to do a data protection impact assessment.


And that will evaluate the processing that you're doing, whether the necessity and proportionality, that pricing in relation to the purposes that you're trying to achieve from the pricing, IE, collecting too much data.


But what you want to achieve, look at the risks to the individuals And the measures that you're taking to protect individuals' personal data.


And that you ensure you comply with the GDPR.


There's a Template, Data Protection Impact Assessment, on the ... website, which is really useful if you're looking to do.


But if your GPA, your impact assessment, shows that there is a high risk to individuals, then you need to notify the Information Commissioner who may get involved, may cause your project to go back.


So, you need to factor into your timeframe, 6 or 8 weeks, potentially, if it is a high risk project, for the information or Information Commissioner to input into that project.


Once you're through your data impact assessment, and you are satisfied, everybody concerned that all is good, you then need to check your internal privacy policy, to ensure that it reflects the new processing that you're carrying out.


You'll also need to tell individuals' what you are doing. Tell your customers tell third parties, If you're collecting third party data, you'll need to update your privacy notice, as per Article 13.


So this includes telling individuals that the legal base of this new person that you're doing, again, how long are you keeping the data for, what you're doing with it?


and ensures that, if you're asking for consent, you do it in a way. That is lawful and appropriate.


You'll also need appropriate contracts.


If you're developing your own app as Coastline have done, you may need terms of use for the app itself.


Probably those convoluted Facebook's.


But certainly with an app like bees, dealing with appropriate behaviors, appropriate postings, the right to remove posting, which are inappropriate, that sort of thing. You'll need to think through how you want your contractual relationship as it were with your customers to work.


And you'll also need to check your contracts with any third parties who are involved in any third party data processes involved in the project to ensure that that contract is compliant with GDPR and that the processes are behaving in such a way that don't cause your problem.


Hopefully, in carrying out your DPI, your impact assessment, you will have identified the processes and that should make life easier.


And finally, I don't.


Um, I just wanted to have one day, rather than a lot of do's, and it's that this also leads quite nicely to the next section. But as with any personal data, you need to be very careful now when sending this data or overseas.


Because following a challenge to the way the Faith Facebook operates, the European Court of Justice has declared.


That's the US EU Privacy Shield, which was a lawful basis for sending data from the European Union to the United States invalid Over 4000 American companies, Global companies relied upon Privacy Shield to export data from the European Union to the US, The basis of sending data diversities is now invalid, Which means that, unless they find another way of doing that, they will be in breach of GDPR.


So, as a business, if you're using a third party, uh, processor, who, it's based in the states or who does processing estates, or who send data to those states and your data to the United States, you need to check the legal basis upon which they are sending personal data to the United States.


If they'd been relying on that on the Privacy shield, you have to stop sharing Pester data with them.


When this happened a few years ago, when the predecessor to the privacy shield was called, Safe Harbor was found invalid, the ICAO gave a grace period whereby she said that Whilst the shielded safe harbor was invalid, you could sort of still carry you carry on sending data to the states.


That's not the case Now.


You need now to look at the legal, the base on which you send data overseas, and to make sure that you do it in a way which is compliant with GDPR.


Because ... Shield now doesn't work.


There are two of the ways that a lot of companies use to send data overseas.


one is what's called the Model Clauses.


And another one is binding corporate rules, which are agreed between your organization.


Model Clauses have commonly been used as an alternative to the Privacy Shield to send data all over the world.


Mister Trims in charging Facebook originally chump change the Model clauses the standard contractual clauses.


The European Court of Justice said, Contractual clauses are fine.


However, they are not a panacea.


You can't just sign up to them, and assume that they are good enough to allow data overseas.


You have to check that the protections that are now, that are in those Model Clauses, are not overridden by local law.


So with the US, because the reason Privacy Shield was found invalid was because the US State Department and Security Services effectively can grab whatever data they want.


It's likely that Model clauses won't work in the context of sending personal data to the United States, because, again, they won't stop the security services coming in, and grabbing the data they need, won't give individuals the protections that they're entitled to.


So if you're looking to put in place Model clauses to send data overseas, you need to make sure they provide adequate protection.


You need to take advice from local lawyers.


What you need to do now is to review all your overseas transfers, to make sure that you are doing it the way that is GDPR compliant.


So that's the bad news. I'm afraid.


There's a little bit of good news.


The British Airways are only being fined £20 million for having their website hacked.


They're working to be fined £183 million.


What happened was a few years ago, 20 18 it was, their website got hacked, and the hacker's effectively redirected people who are customers of British Airways to their own website, instead of British Airways website on the Knicks and Payment Information, and Personal Data.


British Airways ... founded.


It notify the Information Commissioner, It told it's customers that this has happened, and it's do what it could to stop the the hack.


The ICO originally proposed a fine episode, £193 million.


There were three rounds of submissions from British Airways and eventually the ICO Central for the final fine of £20 million.


So significantly lower phone than everyone was worried about.


So what?


Why was it reduced?


Well, the ICO, how to think about it. And they accepted the British Airways didn't gain financially. As a result of the bleach, it wasn't an intentional. Bridgette wasn't sending out millions of spam e-mails to people to, to try and gain from it. So it wasn't they didn't gain from it.


The data breach was serious in terms of its nature and duration.


British Airways didn't intend the breech.


But they were responsible for it because their security wasn't adequate.


They haven't had any previous infringements or failures to comply with cards notices.


So they've been on good behavior previously, they fully co-operated with the investigation.


There was no sensitive personal data, or special capture key person data.


Haptic was only ID and financial data British Airways Act promptly, when notifying the Commissioner So, taking all those into into account, the ICO said that, that would have been the £30 million penalty.


But they adjusted it further down 24 million in light of mitigation factors, namely the fact that British airways' took immediate, remedial actions, both technical and towards its customers, including offering to reimburse any financial losses that customers suffered from the attack.


And they also made available a free credit monitoring service to make sure that individuals could check that they weren't being adversely affected.


British Airways also properly informed the affected data subjects and the regulatory agency and co-operate fully with the investigation.


There was wide reporting the investigation, which will have impacted British Airways brand.


So, that reduced it to 24 million, and then they reduce, reduce it further by another four million quid, down to 20 million, because of covert 19, on the associated economic consequences on British Airways.


So, because British Airways is struggling financially, the fine gets smaller.


So, the lessons learned from that.


OK, phones are getting bigger under GDPR than they ever were under the Data Protection Act. Under the Data Protection Act, the biggest fine, was half a million quid.


Under GDPR, it can be 20 million or 4% of your global turnover.


Under 93 million wasn't 4% of British Airways turnover, but it's still an eye watering phone in anybody's mind.


20 million is still not small and he's still significantly bigger, so the fines are going to be bigger. This is a new benchmark for a fine.


But if you want to reduce the fine, you need to do two things: notify everybody early, co-operate with the ICO, co-operate with your customers, and take immediate action, to try to prevent further losses of personal data.


Back to you, Lynn.


Thanks, Andrew, that's really helpful. So, next, we can go to Luis. Luis, I'd like to kind of hear some insights from you in terms of what's happened over the last seven months of Lockdown and isolation of Residence. So, in terms of creating a new platform for communication between your customer community and the Housing Association, what lessons have you learned the others would benefit from understanding. So, for example, if you have to find hooks to generate the content, Get people interested in it or did it flow easily, and naturally.


I think it's quite an interesting concept question. We're quite a diverse organization. We we have specific housing for older people, for homeless people on an extra caskey.


Quite an interesting geographical spread as well where a lot of our homes are in West Como but widespread across Cornwall. So even outside of her pandemic it can be really, really difficult for people to feel really engaged and quite easy to become quite isolated. So there's many challenges for, for engaging with communities.


anyway, and I think a really good example is if you think about public transport from a lot of locations, from some of our communities to actually visited the GP or take a visit to the job center. You can actually get there and back on a bus in a day. And in this day and age, that's quite surprising. Uncertainly, you know, to do that in a taxi. If you don't have your own transport is beyond the reach of the majority of our customers' financial capacity.


So, where we were progressing down to a digital nudge route anyway, as part of our engagement with our customers.


I'm part of our customer access and digital inclusion strategy, but, but it was just a nudge process because for us, having supported event, some face-to-face sessions, running alongside of thought was, was really important as well. But we, we had been really trying to drive the digital engagement aspect, where appropriate, and the lockdowns really helped us move in that direction. And it's been a little bit more more quickly than we anticipated that we were, we were trying to do it naturally and take our customers on that journey with us in it, And it's helped us all to move in that direction together.


And what it did highlight was that we were making those thousand phone calls that be referred to earlier where customers really needed lots of additional support and to be enabled to engage digitally with us. So, there was there was some reluctance. And quite interestingly, some of that reluctance came from are really engaged customers who've been working with us for a longer period.


Various different generations.


We were able to give them 1 to 1 support, and that's really been a real life life for them to be able to get engaged with the new platform and to Link came with us through the pandemic taught.


So I think definitely something to be mindful all face is you do need to put in that spool and even if that's on a telephone, talking them through how to log in, and what to click on within the platform until they get used to ace, is really important. 


Feedback that we've had from several individuals and then people that I've spoken to has been that the capability for them to interact with others online and connect through the Click and Connect Project has kept them from being completely socially isolated during the lockdown. And we, we've listened to their feedback, and we've, we've had some more in formal meeting sessions online to, to make them feel more at home, the more engaged.


Any things like coffee, cake, virtual sessions, and that that's the thing that's kept them going through the lockdown and the isolation, you know, where they really needed that friendship around them. And even though it's a digital platform, they really gained that from it.


To development of the coastline conversation on the platform and having more interactions, has just really enhance their experience. You know, they can share interests with each other. They can write a blog, at photos, take part, impose on fight, feedback on services. So we really use the platform. First For the informal consultation as well as some of the more formal consultation And knitting those two together has been been, then the lynchpin really fought for making that success. Through some of the feedback that we've gained, we fast, really simple questions of, what does home mean to you? What do you think, communities?


People really engaged and, given us feedback in that, in sort of, a conversation and a real chatting, given their thoughts and responding, to other people's thoughts, which really builds on that initial feedback. And that's all information that we're going to be using to feed into our next corporate plan that we're developing for 2021 to 20 25. So, we're really excited about the real depth of that feedback. So, just having the ability to input into that and interact with others, has providing customers with something to look forward to, and that's what they've told us. And I think one of the hooks that, that's, that's been there, is, We've we've had a couple of people that have had real specialist in trust, but There was generally a big theme going on and various customers it, at wanted company.


And one had got cap from a rescue and they were sharing their experiences of kind of feeling sad loneliness. They're cut contentment and joy when, when they adopted a patio or taken up a new hobby. So for me, I think that was at the heart of what we really were trying to achieve and do as a landlord, you know, is really engage with us.


Communities, to try and support and keep people from being totally isolated. And you know, there's a big lesson that we, we all understand is that once you go down that route, social isolation, your health and well-being starts to deteriorate quite quickly. So it's, it's been a really interesting journey.


We we've been nudged into the process more naturally.


But we are continuing down that journey and I do think at the end of Lockdown when everything changes that were on a new path. And that enables us to have different types of engagements and manage things in, in different way. And, and one of the biggest things that that we're really quite excited about is that we've managed to bring into generations together, so that young people, we've struggled to get, involve a formal meetings. and processes, in the past, have have got really engaged, and sharing their experiences.


And vice versa, with some of our older generation. So that's something new that's come out of all of that.


That's really interesting, that multi-generational case and how the kind of starting to really create communities within your organization. So, just the final question for you, Louise. Over the last seven months, it sounds a little bit to me, like, with the technology that you've developed and the way you've communicated with your residents, that they've actually had more of a voice than they had before. Because of the way that you've engaged with them. Do you think that's true? I do.


I genuinely believe that the digital digital journey was always part of our longer term plan, But and we, we've you know, we've moved forward more quickly than we had anticipated.


And an we were developing it already, which will enabled us to switch from social media to our own platform.


We were preparing for their long awaited white paper at the end of the year, and we've been working with the National Has a federation, together lieutenants charter. Whilst we haven't had to step back from doing any of that, we've been able to continue to do it. Do it in a different way. And be really innovative about how we tackle that as a team. And I think the the options are out there, on the on the hooks for getting people involved and interested. And if people can get engaged and have a chat about things than they remain interested, you know, they're quite happy to give you feedback. We've have feedback about things like the repair survey, so what they think of their customer experiences, pain. And that's really important for us to get my information.


And we've been able to do things like mini polls that have been posted on the platform, and whilst it scores sort of reasonably early stages, we we've become ambitions for the platform and the conversation going forwards and it's all heading in the right direction.


So, we've really got to keep that going now and keep that momentum for the future.


Well, good luck with that engagement, because engagement is just so critical, isn't it? To continuing to improve the way the association runs.


So that's that's I hope you have all found that, quite a fascinating talk from all three of my guests. It just leaves me now to thank be Rally Andrew Hartshorn and Luis ... for joining me today and giving up the time. I just want to mention the next seminar with David Burke back, which is Building for Life Planning For a Happy Life, which is on the tentative November at 9 30. And then the final one in this series is a live webinar with Eugene ..., which is, he's from Guild Living, talking about what the UK needs to do to future Pruett Future Proof Later Living. That will be on the 17th of November at 4 0 PM, so thank you, everybody, for joining us this morning, and thank you to my guests, and see you again next time.

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