Make or break | Leadership in times of crisis

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Okay. Hello and welcome. I've Ben Buckton, Chief marketing and people officer here at Shakespeare Martineau and welcome to today's episode of SHMA Talks for sharing commentary opinions and inspiration from some of the most influential leaders in the UK. It won't Escape anyone's noticed that we're currently living through likely the biggest crisis to face the UK and indeed the world since the World War Two.
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We many organizations facing lots of difficult challenges and decisions to be made in these very often described as unprecedented times. So it's clear that more than ever communication and good leadership or key to both surviving and thriving both through and passed this current situation today. I'm delighted to be in conversation with our very own Smita Jamdar and we're going to be talking about leadership at all times not just in crisis, but before we start Im just going to take a few.
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minutes just to talk about some of the credentials of the one force meter and give you a bit of the background and then we'll and then we'll kick off and I'll start digging into some questions. So so it's meter is a preeminent lawyer in a field and one of the most recognized women in the education sector. She spends her days helping education industry institutions thrive in this rapidly changing landscape and indeed we find ourselves today in a career today. It's meters helped universities innovate and develop to widen their reach build resilience and deliver the best.
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A outcomes which their students I know there are other stakeholders. He's again this year being ranked by legal 500 as a leading individual and also was awarded public sector lawyer of the Year by the same body to meet us at Oxford University graduate who in 2018 received an honorary doctorate from the University of Warwick birth services to a higher education. She's a regular speaker at conferences and events and contributes to panels Publications and books on a regular Kate occasions. She's married tomorrow.
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And Mom to two lovely boys here. She's a lifelong dedicated Liverpool supporter and she's described as an opinionated person who doesn't sit on the fence, which is probably why we get on so well and why I like it so much and she's got a significant online presence with a large enthusiastic Twitter following. So I'm very much looking forward to our chat today. Smita, so welcome. Thanks very much. Ben. I don't know how I live up to that introduction.
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Well, you know, I've got it. I've got it kind of set the scene for how fabulous you are. So so we all admit we're going to kick off we're going to talk about you and then we'll dig into leadership and leadership in times of Crisis over the next half an hour or so, but I'm really interested in finding a bit more out you so it's a really big question.
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So feel free to break it down anywhere you like but how do you become one of the most influential women in law and helping to shape the education sector in the way that you are because probably it in It's the same story that applies to anybody which is that it's a combination of luck being in the right place at the right time finding something that you absolutely love. I think that's so important. You know it for me. This is not a job. I absolutely love it. I love the sector. I love helping the sector. So there's that and then finding the environment that allows you to thrive which is in my case. I've been very fortunate to be at a firm which has for many many years allowed me to do the things that I find.
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Find interesting and challenging and I think it's helped enormously that the higher education sector the further education sector. These are such important sectors for the country that actually being able to talk about how they might develop is something that people find interesting. So I think a combination of all those things and I just feel like I'm the luckiest person to have ended up where I am and he's amazing.
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It's so inspirational to see that passion confusion you when you talk about Your clients when you talk about your sector when you talk about education and what it does for the country. You have such a fire in a passion for it, which is brilliant and CNN in so I find it. So engaging as you kind of developed and evolved your career though and kind of big take it, you know, as you say, you know, you're passionate about it and it's such an interesting area to be have there been things that have been barriers along the way to kind of building your career in there.
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I think that the main barriers have been the sort of barriers of expectations and I think the barriers of expectations to me manifest in a number of ways but one is that lawyers historically have not been expected to have an opinion, you know, typically it's almost been frowned upon because you might upset somebody or you might say something that's slightly controversial and so making sure that you didn't transgress that too much because clearly at the end of the day people have to be able to trust your judgment, but also being willing to kind This actually why do we do it like this? Oh, you know what does need to change and how do we behave differently in the future? I don't think lawyers traditionally saw themselves in that role. I suspect there were probably other barriers which were ones. I almost didn't notice in that. You know, there aren't many other women who are in the sort of policy wonk World.
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There aren't that many certainly women of color in that situation, but I don't think I Purely felt those berries, I think as I walked back to the fact that I have been so fortunate in The Firm I've been with where it has been very very supportive in those areas. But the main thing I think was people thinking lawyers don't have to be in that little square box.
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Yeah, and I think that's the interesting thing isn't it over how people kind of start to break out of those boxes and housing stock be able to bring their personalities to the work that they do and I want to come on to that in more detail in a little while, but As we talked about you and we talked about kind of your career and Leadership. What other if you had say kind of some of your biggest learning so things you've learned from good leaders or things you've learned along the way or things you've learned from Bad leaders or seen in others that you've said, actually that's definitely not how I want to be. I mean some of this I think Will has risks becoming repetitive because we're going to keep coming back to this because to me, they're just such fundamentals. The first thing is authenticity. Absolutely.
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IE if you are not being yourself people know and they know more than ever in a time of Crisis because you will starts behaving quite an odd way, I think if you double the second thing I is leading by example. Yeah, which I know sounds trite it at these things are try but they're trapped because they're true. I think so leading by example in that you can't tell people what to do.
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You can't say to them do this and they might ostensibly I bet it won't really be very meaningful, but they will see what you do and they will model the behavior that they see. I mean that's just true of us all so those things I think the things that I think worked. Well, I think where it hasn't worked. Well is where leadership is it's not sensitive leadership. It's not understanding of why people are perhaps reluctant to do things or unable to do things. So that sort of that kind of gets putting yourself in the shoes of other.
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People and say well why wouldn't they do this? So those are the sort of three things but that's you know, what do you agree with that? And I really like that point around role modeling because I think there's a famous quote. No Connie remember who said it but he is people cannot be what they cannot see.
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Yes so important and it's so true and I think you know for those people that like yourself are a role model as a woman as a woman of color as someone in your industry who has paved the way and hopefully broken down some doors whether meaningfully or kind of you know as That it kind of just happened and it was by luck. You still are role modeling and allowing others to follow and allowing others to see where they can get to I just I think that's so important for everyone to be able to and aspire to yeah, it's really true but my mom's a pediatrician and she often recounts the story of you know, parents used to come in with their children who weren't behaving and say these kids are not doing anything I want they don't listen to a word I say and she would always say to them. Yeah, but they watch everything you do and often when you went back.
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To it. It was because the parents were just in the hot stuff, you know, the behavior they were modeling was completely the wrong Behavior. So yeah, I think whatever the scenario that's the key and that's also the key to authenticity as well that you know, absolutely and I do agree that you can also you can see you can learn so much from people who do it badly and I know that they're doing it badly because it's about how you it makes you feel and it's a little emotional reaction that actually says that's the right way of doing it all the wrong way of doing.
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Yeah and Why I think things like sort of purpose LEDs businesses that whole, you know that the philosophy we've seen evolving really really Taps into something quite visceral. Doesn't it what, you know, it feels comfortable. It feels right and you will just go the extra mile for someone who makes you feel that way, you know, which which it seems to me that that's the way leadership has to be and they'll you know command and control just isn't going to work and it was that Maya.
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Load the whole people won't remember what you said. They'll remember how you made them feel. Yeah. I can't remember who it was but I think that's right. And I agreed agreed so true isn't it is absolutely true. And again kind of will come on to it. But at times like this as well, it is so important around thinking around the words that you say the words that you write that way in which you communicate way in which it impacts somebody and how it makes them feel.
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Yeah, especially at a time when everybody's emotions are incredibly heightened as we Trapped in these boxes. Yeah, I know I know and there's so much anxiety outside, you know workplaces that you know, it is a really really difficult time for people and you can every interaction is either going to make someone feel better on it's going to make them feel worse. It's very rare that it's an entirely neutral sort of transaction. Yeah, and so coming back to you and coming back to Connie your career and your journey, are they individual?
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Our leaders are you don't have to name them unless you want to who have been kind of Inspirations to you who have kind of been those people that it's either something they've done or the way that they've been that's kind of stuck with you or struck you in a way which was really important to you either at that time or or through your career. I think there's there are sort of there have been individuals. I mean like I'm happy to name sort of the very famous ones. I'd probably spare the blushes of those who were kind of mentors to me in the workplace.
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But I guess the point about them was for each person. There was something very strong about what they did. And so I had when I first started as a trainee at the firm my very first principle had this remarkable capacity of just being completely honest with you and honest in the positives. They was very able to say what you were doing. Well, but also very very willing to say this is this wasn't very good.
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I remember once handing him a piece of work and he called me Another Urban said about five minutes later. Look, you're a really really good lawyer. But this is crap and it was just the honesty of it, you know, and I remember feeling kind of invigorated by that because you knew where you stood and you knew that you know, you got exactly what was it. What was in front of you? There was no kind of side to that.
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I think sort of looking more kind of globally or outside the workplace the kind of people who've always inspired me or people whose Vision extends Way Beyond the Narrow field that they're able to sort of control. So they're looking at I mean, I'm going to give you I will give you an example a very current example. So for me as a Liverpool fan Jurgen klopp would be a great example of this and I think the way he's behaved since since brexit since the coronavirus big political issues is he's willing to say what he thinks absolutely he's really kind of very very led by his values led by an end and he takes the same philosophy. He applies to the team and extends it.
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It to society and I just love the fact that he believes that you know, he can make a difference in those areas and he cannot you know, so so those sorts of things I think that were also important to me.
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Not not people who just narrowly focused on one area, but who see the capacity they have to influence much broader and then playing that back then there's a mirror that's very much what you've done in the education industry because you know, there are some people that work in kind of specific sectors that might you know, whether legal advisors financial advisors all kinds of A different special isms that would say, you know, I know my craft and I do that but it happens in a sector. Where is your you very much replicated what you just described in terms of that broader vision of the entire sector and looking at it from Cradle to grave and trying to impact all areas. Not just within your kind of sphere of law. Yeah. Well, I mean by I would never compare myself to Jurgen klopp even in any sort of nasty, but I think that what you realize is that everything is connected and you can either make those connections.
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Actions work seamlessly and well, and so that every bit that is connected is that is doing better or you can build in frictions and tensions and for me especially in the education sector every part of it has a role to play. It's so important and we should find a way for everything to work together and Thrive together rather than sort of needless friction of competition where it's not needed that sort of thing. But yeah, I think also there are not many people who see it.
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their role to kind of speak for the whole further and higher education sector, for example, they tend to come from one part or the other and so you do have occasionally loose you can lose the perspective of why the whole thing has to work as a unit and so I always seemed to me that I did have the luxury of representing clients in both parts the interests of clients in both parts and that role then just for a feel natural and equally, you know, sort of kind of The new alternative providers as they came in, you know finding the roles that work for them. I think that you know, someone has to think like that and there are a few of us who can but for the vast majority. They'll be much more focused on their little bit of it. Yeah. It's great isn't it when people can have that broader perspective and willing to kind of step outside of their box as it were to take that broader View and start to understand those connection points and how things can come together. Yeah awful place to be. Yeah.
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Yeah, and and one that's that's sort of really needed because especially if you think what education stands for at the end of the day, it's the route to social justice. It's the route to equality. It's the route to opportunity for, you know everybody and if we can make it do those things through for example, the Civic mission of Institutions, then we will be a better country at the end of it. It's like a just such an exciting place to be.
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Yeah, and I you know someone I'm personally incredibly passionate about education as it was something for me that really helped me kind of elevate kind of my life and change the direction that my life was going to go in as a very kind of lower working class family single-parent family the youngest of three children first person in my entire family to go to university.
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It was education that paved the way for me, you know, and have incredible experiences in exciting rolls all around the world and is opened up and it an entirely New Path for me that Perhaps wouldn't have been available if I hadn't gone through that route, but wouldn't have been available. If I hadn't have gone through all of that education and continuous learning up there after so, you know, it really is such a powerful tool isn't it to help individuals, but also as you talk about really really confidently how it helps from a Civic point of view as well help businesses how education institutions themselves, you know through through times like this, but equally through the uncertainty as we've had in the UK.
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Since 2016 they've been kind of that stalwart haven't they have Society? Yeah, and yours.
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I mean your story is just brilliant and it's those stories that we need to keep getting out there because unfortunately, you know, there are enough people now who you know sort of say things I will too many people going to University and really we should just sell or get them into jobs and things like that without recognizing that as you say that powerful force for transformation of individuals and their Lives and in turn their communities, that's how you know, which I think is just as I say for me I couldn't imagine being at anything else and wanting anything to do anything else in a different sector because that's so magical when it works. Absolutely and it is when you're so passionate about something that actually coming to work everyday is such a joy. It is a joy and I'm very lucky that I've Got Fabulous people I work with who I've known for years, but the subject matter itself is just just terrific.
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Yeah about your about reputation now. So so you you obviously have a very strong personal brand your very whether you know, some people actively manage their personal Brands I think for you. Actually, it's just really natural.
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It is just the way you are and how you act so but what are some of the things you've picked up along the way in relation to personal brand and how you kind of if you're going to give someone advice around how they build a brand for themselves a personal brand either in an ation or in a market in a sector and how they then start to maintain. The first thing I think is again, it's always feels like so many cliches doesn't it? But you need to you need to listen and really understand what's going on or try to understand what's going on in the world that you are moving in really whatever it is whoever it is. So it's not it doesn't start from projecting outwards. It starts from how all those things.
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Things influence who you are because you're spending your time listening to them. So I think for me it's especially for talking about a professional sort of scenario listening to our clients listening to other people who understand that area is the starting point. The next thing then is obviously showing that you're interested in those in the in the issues that affect them. I'm very very lucky because going back to something we said earlier in the conversation.
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These are to the education sector is something that along with health is at the part of a lot of policymaking. So there's a lot going on. Yeah, and there are lots of judgment calls and you should be at willing to kind of say what you think about those things. I think you should be willing to obviously change your mind as well if things go wrong, but being willing to talk about their things and then lastly not having this rigid boundary between your personal life and your professional life when I first started using Twitter, I remember somebody saying to me, well don't you think you should have a professional account and I was trying to think what a professional account would look like.
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Other than the site, you know almost like a Twitter account dressed in a suit or you know, it kind of like just recited cases and I thought no, you know, I'm not using this is it for me it was never about I how do I use this to advance my bicycle profession? It was just I've had I've got things I want to say I want to talk to people. I want to hear from people. I want to share conversations and it's brilliant for doing that. And yes, I probably say a little close to the winds occasionally on.
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On some of the views I express but I think people know that they know what they're getting and they you know, that is the truth. That's that's nitrate. So all it's your brand is only ever going to be who you really are because it goes back to that authenticity point doesn't it people see through it? It's not honest. Oh totally totally and I think people would rather see someone being honest and open and she said potentially selling too close to the wind sometimes but that's but that's honesty, right? That's some yeah.
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Bailed out there and being authentic and equally, you know this idea where people have kind of a corporate account or a work account and a personal account. It's kind of like you're not to people at work. You're still the same person. Exactly. And if you're going to have that business kind of version will be going to be a bit boring. So the personal one that's probably going to engage me a little bit more. Yeah, and we've realized haven't we that that when you whether its clients or your colleagues or whoever you do engage with the person, of course you do, you know.
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No, and it's almost that the professional element is taken as read. Yes you I know you know the lava. Can I talk to you? Can I enjoy? Yeah, and and for me, I mean one of the nicest things I ever read was a few years back in Chambers. They said the Education team at Shakespeare Martineau are fun to work with and I thought that was one of the best things I've ever heard because you know working with lawyers never is described as fun who describes their lawyer is funny.
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I imagine that huh Very often and it doesn't mean that we weren't doing serious work and difficult work and complex work and all the rest of it. Just meant that, you know, people enjoyed picking up the phone to us. They knew that they would have a conversation and it would be an interesting Lively conversation. I'm happy personality behind it, which is definitely people by people right whether it is context whether it's in a bar where you'll meet other people meet and like and build relationships with individuals. And that's what's important. Is it around humans?
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A human interaction. Yeah, and it just transforms your experience of anything. If you look at the person that you're talking to and think you know what I like this. This is good. This is make it back to how it made you feel it makes me feel good. Absolutely. So I'm going to switch gears a little bit not to bring the mood down. Well, let's talk about the current world that we live in.
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Yeah, so we are you know as everyone keep saying during these times of Crisis as a country as a global kind of world, you know, there's a healthcare crisis going on around World tens of thousands of people have died many more ill numerous issues happening in the world of business and we are headed into potentially one of the deepest and possibly hardest possessions that we face for some some time both in the UK and around the world you and I probably remember the 2008 recession the last recession Earth had don't let these smooth skin will kill you.
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Self been thinking back to those times and thinking kind of as kind of through it but also classed it. What do you think some of the things that we can learn from as we kind of we head into this kind of no recession more knowingly and with more warning than we did last. So again, these are sort of personal Reflections for me and I'm not sure these are the lessons that our politicians have taken from the last recession.
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But to me the Underlying what I think we need to learn and we need to act on his first of all inequality is going to be the thing that holds us back. So if we want our recovery to be as quick as possible and as thorough as possible, we should not be embarking on anything which it relies on us probably playing on inequalities in Excel exacerbating inequalities.
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So, you know it we need to have a real interest in everybody and how do we bring everybody up at the The same time to try and get the country or our businesses or whatever it is. We're thinking about you know through this and out strongly. The second is we should use this chart time to think about things that we wanted to change but never felt we could change because it was just too much disruption in one go. I'm not going to talk about the country. I'm just going to talk about, you know, the example experience we've had as a businessman.
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I know we were looking at things like agile working and it felt like it Going to be something that took decades probably a decade to really really get going just because people are so entrenched in how they like to work and so on and actually we were forced to do it quickly and I found it absolutely exhilarating how easy it's been and how much it's true freed up and I can now see a future that's very different to the one we had before. Yeah, but that was you know, that was something we wanted to do and we would think so.
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There's lots of things like that that we could look at and say, how do We take this opportunity and make those changes and now when support people they were making those changes. Yeah, I agree. I think it's a I think it really is around. How do you how do you help people? How do we support people? But also how do we kind of keep that momentum of the positive change that has come off the back of this so PN being able to spend more time in their homes. That's not necessarily always a bad thing. So the fact that people not having to commute there for not creating.
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Environmental issues and climate change issues and the positivity that can come from that and the positivity of people being able to manage their work. They differently that they can have breakfast with their children or dinner with their children and manage their work around it and not spend hours on tubes or trains or or in cars. So I have real positives there. I think it's only reflect back on the last recession. I think there was a lot of brands that when I think about decisions that their leadership teams made in relation to people and going back to that took them along.
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Long time to recover from and yeah, but obviously some having and some hats are fully rebranded order to kind of get away from some of the stigma or any of the things that they did in the actions that they took and I think it all the me kind of comes back to this trust element of yes leadership. So exactly as you were saying at the start trust is so important and now more important than ever. I was reading Edelman who do kind of a trust index report.
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They do it a couple of times a year and their latest one was a really interesting to say Actually in a lot of Industries around the world trust is actually dropped and get out of in firms and in CEOs and Leadership teams. And and that is that is really interesting for me in the sense that there has been such a constant for so long that people have actually used that in this changing political and economic world that we've been in work has been the constant. Yeah, as we move to this covid coronavirus impact that it's had on businesses and well, that's meant that people don't necessarily know what's happening.
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They've kind of started to lose that trust and lose a be a that faith and I think that incumbent on all of us as leaders in business as leaders in Industry as leaders in our professions to try and make sure that people feel that trust he knows and that we we maintain that consistency by communicating by being open by being authentic and being transparent and kind of leading the way for those people so that they can continue to trust in as and have that faith and I think those are the businesses and brands that will come through.
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Sure, absolutely. Absolutely and the brands that sort of recognize that they are almost there to serve as much as to benefit, you know, if you're serving your community your clients your people, you know, you will benefit yourself, but you're getting it through that rather than seeing your own personal kind of benefit has been the primary driver for your business and it is those businesses, you know, and as being one of them that have you know very much been there too. How can we help? What can we do? How can we kind of give away?
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A Services giveaway time support people and giveaway products. Those are the firm's that will be remembered through this not the first and you know, I won't name brands but firms that made people redundant on day one that you know, made some unscrupulous decisions around certain things that will be remembered and will unfortunately tarnish them for years and years to come absolutely agreed Shakespeare Martineau.
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We talked a lot about authentic leadership and and And we've talked about authenticity a lot. How does that for you how does that manifest? What does that what does that mean to you? And what would that look like? So authentic leadership is in my view an absolute match between what said and what is actually done and in you know, she's probably going to be deeply embarrassed by me saying this but you look at Sarah Walker Smith, and that's absolutely what you get. She will tell you what she's going to do.
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She will do what she's going to do, but in deciding what she's going to do She consults she takes on board opinions. She tries to see it from as many perspectives as possible. And I think all that does mean that at the end of the day what happens feels real it feels like this is a big and meaningful step in a way that very often, you know, strategic plans and changes don't feel real because they are actually, you know, pretty superficial at the heart of it.
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So I'd say that's it the match between what's what's said and what's done as long as that's you know a good It then you feel it feels authentic one of these positive and it's and it's and those words and actions meet in the middle. Exactly. I agree with that and I think now more than ever people will remember you for what you did so s both what you said and what you did and and I think there's a there's a real sense of me when I when I think about kind of some of the brands out there that have had to make some difficult decisions. There's a the CEO of Airbnb Brian chesky and he's they've had some a 25% of their global.
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Workforce redundant and he basically released this open beautiful letter to all of his employees basically talking about the painful decision that he's come to he was empathetic he was transparent. He was human. He talked about all the things that we're going to do for those people leaving. He talked to them talked about them. How much in love he had for those people. Yeah.
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The media was just not only true to him as a leader but equally something he will be remembered by These people to walk away from that firm still feeling good about it. Still feeling good about the Brandon and hopefully as he says in his letter will come back one day to work. Yeah, absolutely real authenticity. Yeah, I agree. So in this world that we live in now where people are in there, they're kind of boxes and you know, I can literally hear my wanderley two-year-old daughter screaming downstairs. So hopefully it's not being picked up on the mic. I'm this kind of a sense.
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And I've had some really interesting things about kind of the end of professionalism will come because you know, people can't as we were talking about earlier. You can't have a work queue and the home you anymore. It's just you. So what do you think in terms of those people over have those divisions between a work zone or and home? So now how do you think that's great going to break down? And and what are your thoughts and predictions for how moving forward that the world that we all live in and the Work World we all live in will change.
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It's probably exacerbating a trend that was already there wasn't I mean, I think more and more weed realize that you don't just change as you walk through the doors of your office's you are the same person you bring the same preoccupations and you take it back the other way as well. So, you know, I think if anything we're just going to going back to your point about the new flexibilities the new approaches that we can adopt we ought to be able to make people feel comfortable with less of a tension between those two roles. That should really be the goal for me.
31:58
That's how we it's not the death of professionalism. That's the birth of a sort of new new wave of professionalism. That's very real and very human and that's great. And I love that. I love that idea of that. It would be it's not the death of something. It's the birth of something else humanization of people workplace. I love that. Yeah. I really love that. It's only one final question because I know we're getting tight on time.
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So global leaders all around the world in business in In politics, obviously leading the way over this period that we've been through who have been the ones that have inspired you we won't talk about the negatives because we've been impressed you and that really stood out. I'm just gonna have a quick look because Forbes did this fabulous article, which was about the fact that you know, there was sort of so many I'm going to hate to say this women leaders who were kind of outperforming their male counterparts.
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So you're looking at people like President saying when from Taiwan you're looking at Angela Merkel, you're looking at Jacinda modern, you know, and I think if you look at the in their own ways, they're quite different women and maybe it's not the fact that they're women that significant, but the the reality of it is that they are kind of so there's the way they communicate the priorities that they've always shown are so different in some ways to the ones other leaders are showing and that is the that's what's kind of paid off for them open.
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Each of those long-standing sort of values that they've had and that I think is really paid off and true to those values that got them elected as well. Yeah. Absolutely. I think the gist into one's really interesting and one of my favorite things from her that she said was you can be strong but you can still be kind absolutely that's one of those things that kind of, you know, true authentic.
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Yeah, he's passionate about what they do, but she's still strong leader who communicates really effectively and has shown how she can lead a Country through and now it seems passed the crisis. Let's hope so, let's hope so. Absolutely. So just want to say a huge. Thank you sweetheart thoroughly enjoyed every element of that conversation. It was brilliant. So thank you so much for your time for those of everyone at home as we are all at the moment look out for webinars and articles from samhita on our website at www.bustmold.com who dot U k-- you can also follow Smita at on Twitter that's meter gender and follow her LinkedIn pages.
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And I assure you you will be very amused and very entertained and some great content published very often. If you enjoyed today's episode of smart talks Shakespeare my clothes platform to share commentary opinions inspiration and inspiration from some of the most influential leaders in the UK and visit Shma.co.uk. And subscribe to get access to more including a recent talk with Professor. Yes, Donnie from the knotting business school. Thank you everybody.