This webinar explores the fundamental similarities and challenges across both markets to help maximise growth and sustainable delivery, prioritising community as the key to demand.
Our panel discusses the differences and synergies between the markets and lessons that can be learned by working more closely together, especially in terms of the opportunities for both sectors from inter-generational living and unlocking the urban market. Key things to be explored will include access to the ‘right’ land, funding, planning and inclusive design for the demographic, together with issues around affordability and viability of services and communal spaces.
Our Panel
Jamie Bunce
CEO, Inspired Villages
Darren Clarke
Partner, Arcadis
Anthony McCourt
Founder and Head of Investor Relations, Court Collaboration
Will Waller
Director, Arcadis
Event host
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Webinar transcript
(Please note this is auto-generated and un-edited)
Hello, everybody, and welcome to today's webinar on Build to Rent Retirement Living. And I'm delighted to be joined today by some fantastic experts across both of these sectors. So we have with us today, Darren Clarke and will wallet space from al-qaeda start specializing in the retirement living sector and we'll build to rent. We also have with us Jamie Bumps, the CEO at Inspired Villages and also Anthony McCourt, the Founder of Caught Collaborations. So what we're going to do today is we're going to look at exploring the differences and the synergies across both these markets. I want our experts to share their experiences of operating in both these areas and potentially explore what lessons can be learned by working more closely with each other.
0:58
There is a chat icon on the left of your screen. So, please use this to ask any questions or views as we go through this webinar. And, if we do run out of time, then we will come back and answer the questions once we finish the webinar.
1:14
So, this, these two sectors, they are both similar in terms of the quality of product and the services that are delivered. But they are also, as we all know, quite different. So, one is dealing with an older generation and the other probably more likely to be dealing with a younger generation. So, if we come to you will first, could you just give us an overview on the build to rent sector. So everyone understands what that means. Yes, certainly.
1:48
So I think probably the definition of belt run in terms of what kind of construct sectors properly broadened over time.
1:57
But essentially, the product is something that is purpose built for renting.
2:02
And so, actually, generally, the author has, of course, branding element and a focus on service and a product that's tailored for that purpose.
2:12
But I think it's important probably, to take stock actually in a part of this discussion, actually where ability to run it sectors come from. It is maybe going to as well more or more broadly.
2:22
And actually, in itself, it is relatively nascent in the UK in terms of probably most people would agree, it's been kind of around for, say, a decade or so.
2:33
But actually seeing really significant growth in that time. Probably on three fronts actually. Firstly, in absolute numbers, terms in terms of work.
2:41
We're probably at about kind of 60,000 beltran units in the UK or homes or say.
2:48
And actually we're sort of delivery level of about 10000 times per annum in the last couple of years.
2:56
But actually a really encouraging feature pipeline of more than 100,000.
3:03
But actually it's also grown in an ascendant regionally.
3:07
originally kind of predominantly the folks in London and actually now, almost more dominant in the wider regions.
3:13
And also from a product perspective, actually the, the spectrum of what's available and the variety of what's available has also grown.
3:21
So I think for me, that that's all important context, actually, in the debate.
3:24
When we start talking about Retirement living as well, in terms of the journey that actually maybe both sectors will likely go on.
3:31
Thanks, well, so that's a really good overview. I think, Darren, it would be quite helpful for you to do something similar in terms of retirement living. Because we do know that one of the challenges that we've got with the retirement living space is the consumer, actually understanding what is actually out there, and what the benefits are to persuade them. To consider moving into some form of retirement living scheme. So, could you confront alum from Wales, does Great. Thanks, Luke. Yeah. I think the laser live insects, you could learn a lot of valuable lessons from the build to rent sector as well. Points out in a very nice and really grow.
4:08
Very quickly exponential growth, particularly in the urban context and I think what we do see it later live in, is a massive opportunity for developers and operators. And Jay will touch on on that a bit later, but, you know, quoting figures, you know, we're building somewhere in the order of upwards of 8000 units a year for retirement living.
4:24
Well, that, that number, we believe, is massively under supplied to meet the growing demand in the market, and I think part of the challenge that we've got, as was pointed out by what is actually understanding the customer profile. I think that's the assumption which is called a just as a few myths. Sydney Busted up around the people that perhaps grow old and what they want.
4:43
And I think what we need to do is perhaps take some lessons from the build to rent sector, around looking at the propositions that get developed, either in urban or suburban context, to really wrap around what those customer needs are early. So as we see a growing megatrend, still around urbanization, we still fail is a massive void an opportunity, as we said, for developers and operators to increase the pace, increase the scale.
5:06
To me a new market demand, which is quite analogous to build to rent in terms of access to a main.
5:12
It says being accessible, being available. But of course the one key key aspect is we need access to care as and when it's needed. So we're not perhaps looking at the market, which is especially care and all the extra care. And this is more about retirement and ..., and aspirational product to, to aim for not something, which you know, sadly. might you know people might pass away, and if it's especially care home or end of life care, those kind of education pieces are needed to really demystify the product and what it means for the customer.
5:41
I'm being quite close to 55 in a few years' time. It doesn't seem that far away, so that for me for my point today, I certainly want to be growing out at a facility that actually gives me access to great care when it's needed, But also that that great facilities that many of the facilities provide.
6:00
So, if we, If we look at it, the big difference between the two in the main, we've got Bill to rent, which is very clearly a rental model, and retirement living, which in the main, tends to be home ownership model. Coming to you, Jamie, just from your experiences as an operator. Because very quality project. What opportunities do you see for your organization or the wider sector to the build to rent sector in terms of getting a rental model up and running And do you So, I'm going to throw second question and, do you, actually, What tools do you see in persuading the older generation to actually move into a rented unit, as opposed to ...
6:55
unit when this country say fixated retirement? Thanks. Thanks, Darwin, as well for great introduction and Will, you touched on some similarities, really, in terms of service and service delivery for the people a little bit about ourselves. First, I am the CEO of the Business School inspired villages where an operator and developer retirement communities.
7:20
We currently have six communities in operation servicing just over one thousand people. But our development pipeline currently, to get this to circa 15,000 people in the next few years, subjects of planning and delivery. We are in proud partnership, is legal in general.
7:38
So we're funded through patient capital, just important for us, because it allows us really to focus on making the right decisions. And I will send them to Anthony will say the same. You know, the built around market is nice, but it is ahead of the age living market is ahead of where we are. And I'm personally fascinated to try and learn as much as I can about the way in which that market has evolved in this short period of time to ensure that what we do use that knowledge so we don't re-invent the wheel. one of the major issues we have is myth busting with Darren assorted mentioned, but the reality is, currently there's 12 million people over 65 in the UK. And in 20 18, that was really wanting five of those forecasts.
8:27
By 2050 is one in four of those will be over 65 and living in the UK, get the offers that people have on their terms are quite narrow, so the market generally has a, for sale or leasehold, market, share ownership, market, and the rental market, which last year delivered £5000 to to to a potential of several hundred thousand that should really be living in specialist accommodation. So for us to be able to offer products to match people's aspirations on their terms is an absolute critical element that we must deliver in order for us to create a tangible product for people to buy.
9:11
I mean, our average age is 79.
9:15
Our average age of rental is 85, traditionally were 60, 40 split of couples to singles and the rendering people 75% single.
9:29
So we need to sort of be able to offer people that option where they don't really want to go down a very narrow ability to to get involved in live live with us. They can have it on their terms and that choice, much like a very good build to rent product. We will, we are service delivery focused. So, typical scheme would have a central building that have restaurants, cafes, bars, wellness facilities, pools and gyms and addresses and the like. So we're very much in place that people come to live because they want to live, They want to have that experience. They don't necessarily want to have the hassle of home ownership.
10:10
Which is another key factor. And if we can then create a tangible product bust the myth about living under a rented regime and not for sale regime, then there's market that they should and saying, you should get to sort of 13,000 people against the 5000 people by 2024. So, so, they indicates you are suggesting that this is going to be a vastly growing market. And our experience to date, locked down, slow down our rental proposition, because people didn't really want to move this first quarter and into second quarter, 2021. They showed a marked change to that. So, it's exciting times for us, but we are very young in in our sector and keen to learn as much as we can from the specialists that are already operating in built.
11:04
So, coming to you tonight.
11:08
He clearly looks a lot younger than any of us.
11:12
Dealing with a project is really kind of like spiraled, very quickly, over the course of the last few years, and is a very popular and high quality products. So, what advice would you give to Jamie, in terms of how you have marketed to tease? Because it seems to me, and our white paper that we've launched last week, has confirmed. They sit in the retirement living market, that there is quite a lot of consumer confusion over what all the different retirement living products actually are. And because they're not that well-known, you can't get that kind of aspirational demand. But in your world, we've got almost the exact opposite. So, what do you do differently?
11:58
Yeah. I mean, it's, it's a it's a really good challenge, Louise and I would say that anyone who claims to be on top of the bill to rent market doesn't fully understand it because it's so evolving and changing.
12:08
Actually, every time we check in, again, we're having to dig deeper and get better, and that's on everything from design to R, You know, not just development quality, but actually what we're putting inside our communities.
12:21
You know, you know, I mean, Jimmy give us some really salient points there.
12:25
But there is a, there is a market, which I don't think traditional built around developers are currently tapping into.
12:33
So, we're a city center based developer, so we like, we like prime city center assets in the regions of the UK.
12:40
because of where urban centers are going in the UK, ultimately, that means we are going to hold.
12:47
We are doing mostly 1 and 2 bedrooms because of the headwinds on planning policy.
12:53
We're really been shifted away from car parking.
12:56
So, because of all a lot, we're building some assets that I think at least on paper, have some culture olympio here, verbal tensions between retirement living and an R R on normal customer, if you will.
13:09
So, you know, people think everyone who wants to live in the city center is a graduate, who wants to go to the pub every night. It's not actually quite true.
13:16
You know, we, we, we focus research are, we've got a thousand people in our assets across the city, and we, and we talk to them, because, actually, there are best best ingredient as to what our, current and future customer is going to say.
13:30
I'm almost always the not. You know, actually, the demographic there is more widespread than people realize it isn't. Young, professional, graduate community are a part of it.
13:40
But, there are by no means the most of it. And so, so, we as a business and I can talk for the sector.
13:46
The development community in Birmingham, but I do know there's a lot of our peers are looking at this as well as to how can we begin to look at designing and creating communities and assets?
13:57
Which are more wide ranging and their appeal than to just the young career progressive, young professional?
14:05
And that will be, I think, an evolution rather than revolution, I have to say.
14:11
You know, I think, I think Jimmy and his business and his sector will always command, are really superior space and in retirement leader living.
14:21
But I do think there is a part to play for the wider built around sector to maybe focus, I suppose use peripheral vision a bit. As to.
14:32
How much could they could they bring in a bit more of the customer community into the city? You know, Birmingham, we like to go to China, a lot to bang the drum that were the youngest city in Europe.
14:43
And 40% of us are under 30. I think it's even less than that nine. But, but, but actually 60% of us aren't.
14:50
So so what are we as a business?
14:52
And as a community HIO, we, you know, what, what message are we sending to that community?
14:58
And we want to build assets in city centers and urban communities, not that have all of us in it, because it is our city, and our region.
15:07
And so we are really beginning to dig deep, and looking at high two, we move forward with the development constraints you have in prime city centers.
15:16
Let's not, You know, some of those are material, They're not going to go away.
15:21
So, but how do we use with the, you know, the resources and tools that the red line gives us?
15:28
How do we dig a bit deeper into making this a bit more of an aspirational community for those in liter living as opposed to those starting off their life and career journey?
15:38
And that's very much a, you know, that's a moving faced. And it's something we're grappling with.
15:42
Nothing, sectors have got the same problem. Haven't they, in terms of its so difficult to see, it takes such a long time to go street planning and to design a scheme then deliver it that, by the time it's up for both Jamie and Antony. It's potentially out of date and we've seen that with K if it hasn't Wayne, how the design has suddenly changed. Certainly within retirement living and showing balconies are no two meters apart now. So people can still communicate outside. And they suddenly it's how did.
16:19
How do sectors deal how quickly it changes with planning being such a frustration? Well, chimp international. I mean, it's interesting, isn't it? Because we get focused on bricks and mortar, but bricks and mortar is only one part of the equation. And Antony sort of touched on. It says, as I know, we focus on, we're worried about creating the tangible benefits to people's lives. You know, the strapline is to do this to be the best years of your life because people living with us, they want it to be the best years of their lives. So that so they want to sort of see activity that doesn't want to be part to why they want to. You know, we've got, on the 21st of June, one of our residences, skydiving? Out of an airplane because that's what they wanted to leave the greatest stigmatizing build to rent just for young people. Not necessarily's senior living gets for senior people, but you know, I've got 103 year old to go to the gym three day, three times a week. We have people who, who are actively mo bile and one choices in life.
17:21
And I think we as a, as a real estate operator, and develop, in whatever sectarian, we should be joining our thinking. In order to create a true Community ... community, we use the Word community. There's so many similarities between what we tried to do. And we have a common goal of creating wonderful places for people to spend their time. And that's bricks and mortar. That's not seen how they lived. You know? Yeah. You could do short-term, two meter distance between a a, A, A, A, people connecting. But, but, actually, and I will be through that, by the time we saw delivering Ocelot schemes. And I think we've got to sort of really, sort of elevate above just a binary brick, mortar mentality, and the stigma that goes with that to make a better solution around.
18:14
I agree with Jimmy and I, look for, for me, the underpinning of all of this has to be driving choice. And the more choice that our customers have, I think the better it is.
18:25
And the more choice out there, developers like ourselves have to get better and quality has to improve. Otherwise, we'd go to business. So, so, it's a really, you know, choice for me is a big driver in, you know, in our city and the regions. We try and work in.
18:43
We, like, you know, there's room for a lot of developers and there's room for different styles and qualities. But also, choice comes in with regards to the type of tenure on the type of, you know, customers and stakeholders we have in those communities and not dries, I think in with regards to amenity space. You know, Jim, he's talking about some of the incredible stuff he puts in his villages. Some of our red lines in the city center don't allow us to go that far. I'm afraid but we'd love to but, but therefore, we've got limited space on amenity.
19:13
So you've got a real tussle between, what actually do you put in to today's community? So you're getting your customers out of their apartment.
19:23
But actually, inside their community, within a confined constrained space. And then you have Louise, all of the practical aspects of, you know, do elderly people, want to live in tar Blocks question. You know, it may not be for them, but I think that's their choice. Go back to the choice point, and ultimately, it's for us to build an asset which is capable of being aspirational to them as it is for a young professional. And I don't think that it is too difficult actually to do.
19:51
And I do know, and I can speak on authority from this, that we all read on a no other competitors of ours are really beginning to look at this as to how we open up our design standards and design guides to make this much more appealing and scalable in the future for a much wider demographic.
20:11
That's what makes it so exciting though, doesn't it, because at the end of the day, what we, what we are concluding here is that there is no one size fits all solution to it and actually both the sectors have got some great positives that will allow more sustainable development for for both of your sectors. really. Darn well. Do you want to come at it from a kind of a construction site? Anything that you'd like to determine? Yeah. I think I've probably for another couple of things. I think the first one would be for, kind of building perspective, actually. You know, definitely seeing more of a focus on how you can make the amenities, for example, more flexible. So actually, you know, rather than having a space that's for a fixed fuse, you might have a space, it's flexible, and then one morning, it might be a yoga studio later that day. It could be a popup bar, for example, and then, you know, the other thing I'd add to that is that how do you then use that and the approach generally?
21:06
And I think he touched on this around actually, how would you maybe bring amenities in, as well, and use that as a vehicle for engaging with the local community, the high street, And, you know, you start to build that, that kind of a rural community value that, that we know customers are going to enjoy.
21:26
Just as an at least from my perspective, you know, if you talk about the urban urban model, I think, you know, they have a model presents a great opportunity actually to provide, you know, the customers are either ... live in great access to staff.
21:38
So I think in terms of what are the factors that we still yet to sort of see that save the real shift is the impact of Brexit, we still say, essential for cash stuff.
21:48
You know, just sort of leave, leave the UK, and go back to their homeland. So, I think being in an urban context, makes it easy for cast staff to perhaps traveled to. I don't think, if I go back to my childhood, often used to go into town to visit, my mom would often go to a T shirt, Have a cup of tea, and have that sort of community fail. But also felt it was quite good. I can perhaps have a nice phone as well. And you made it kind of a really great, foot exciting time to be with you, with you, with your elderly persons. And I think that's just something to be had around.
22:17
What we've clearly seen over the last 12 months with some local authorities, not quite switching on to the economic boost that could be given to two subsiding, retail centers and, you know, urban areas that we've seen and really thinking about creating that critical mass of activity for the High Street with families, for older persons and, you know, as well as that commercial activity that's that's going to remain within the Cities.
22:41
The whole repurpose an agenda if you look at again.
22:43
But I mean look at the spotlights on some of the assets that are going to move away from retail into ... and also from commercial to ....
22:51
It's going to be quite fascinating landscape to look at in the next few years, but I think is Anthony says, I think it can be quite difficult and challenging to work with.
22:59
You know, some of that planning authorities were, actually, they really see the opportunity that creates to Regrow that economy? And, and yet we still get hamstrung by, you know by sale and when I six and all these sorts of things.
23:10
I think commercial context, we want to make sure it's right for development for, you know, either later living plants, or be able to rent plants, to come into, into the urban areas and make it an opportunity.
23:21
Rather than, you know, keep talking about the constraints that we often see that developers and investors, a tide with rarely.
23:28
It's interesting, you say that, Sorry, I'm jumping in, the habit of this, but the way we find that people, again, on the stigma basis, our elderly person, you're gonna want to have your possessions with you. You're gonna want loads of storage. You going to want a dining room and a big kitchen and the other elements you getting the way we're seeing more and more people who live with them, they actually got the mentality that they've done that. So the socio economic benefit for wider area is huge, because they want to go out, they want to sit in the car, they want to go for lunch. If they want to invite their friends around there, they want to go into a small dawning facilitate private dining or why the facility within our scheme. And enjoy those elements of companionship, You know, when you talk about care, has interesting, isn't it? Because the stigma, again, you just imagine these people, are in need of care. Well, one of our values is businesses.
24:28
You always have time for a cup of tea.
24:30
Because actually, genuinely believe that human interface, that human, connection, and contact is, is a huge benefit to wider NHS obligations. And the like just because you tackling issues, like you did with the, you know, you sort of have that back to that true community. That's where, what Anthony is doing and if he's focusing in on the, on the, on the younger demography and when, in the other end of the scale, they actually run along very well together. Generally, you know. And then there's a lot of similarities between them and that's where the opportunity in city center is better understood by planning authority which it isn't generally. in terms of socio economic benefit is enormous and that's what should help hopefully help kick start some regeneration within cities across the UK.
25:17
I think, as we've seen, the job was just to build on that as well. We've seen some invest in, some investors really want a very clean asset, in terms of its tenure type.
25:26
Going to another one of your pace this morning, it's that Monica has trusted that we're talking about some good examples of multi-generational in Europe.
25:33
So we've seen some good models in Germany and Holland, where students will co-habit and the same facilities with, you know, loudly residents, and they get subsidized rent through, providing, you know, additional types of care services.
25:44
But David, it's symbolic has talked about. I can say, So I didn't realize that I can say it was kind of got a multi-generational offer, whereby a similar sort of, offer that with students and the elderly living together.
25:55
And again, they get the same subsidized rent, But it's always interesting, though, the older persons are interested in the younger people, Younger people like to be, you know, sort of looked after by the hour. So, I think there is that kind of synergistic fit isn't around, you know, almost say, hygiene factors, what people's, you know, from a psychological point of view, you want those user groups or customer groups.
26:17
So, just touching on that, what I did want to talk about, Will, you and I, have had a discussion over it, kind of like rental values for both filtering and retirement nothing. And there is a difference in it, out tool. A VA will perhaps to stop just looking at the charges because there is that it does appear to be a true sit in the fact that the consumer doesn't think that retirement living, for example, is good value for money. If we're talking about the myth busting that Jamie was mentioning earlier, what can we do better? So this is to review, what can we do better in order to get it out into the public domain of the benefits that come from both of these models?
27:05
Well, do you just want to start on the on the actual rental values and the differences? Yeah, sure.
27:10
So I think, you know, when we look at selection of data and some of the opportunities when we're looking at say both across kind of London and isolates and also UK generally actually, probably there's a the qubit of 20 to 30% difference in the average rent for say it to bed home.
27:31
And we can probably, you know, get into a debate about why that is exactly whether it's the the, you know, the product specification or more limited supply, for example. But I think It's an interesting difference.
27:46
And actually, when we look at, you know, data, actually, this potential differences, even in terms of, kind of, average size, for example, of the home as well. So I think, the nature of the product, so it seems like it is different, in terms of what it's offering the customer, and also maybe the price point that it's on an average, in the market, at the moment. But I think, you know, one thing, as I said earlier, is actually whether that will, or could change over time.
28:13
Because I think that's probably being the case in other sectors, where actually, the spectrum of in a variety of products, and therefore, price point as well, has probably broaden than perhaps that. I think we've talked about evolution earlier. You may, perhaps, as a direction.
28:26
It may well evolve into, say, really focused speak from an operational point of view, we touched on with a number of clients in the last few weeks. And I think this seems to be a real need for extra data around suddenly the operating model. And I think the bill to the market, clearly, it's very mature around that.
28:42
Perhaps we could share some lessons learned about how, to, how to sort of start things up, because certainly, from a way to live in operating perspective, Again, Jamie, comments on that shortly, is perhaps a few they've got different ways of calculating the operational costs or whether it's over a 30 year life, a 40 year life, but also what's allowed in there. And what solutions are made as part of the vibe initial viability assessment. I think very quiet.
29:06
Remarkably, actually, so one of the things is to get real true transparent, about optimizing the operational performance.
29:14
That over 30, 40 year life, actually, these things payback. And I think for me, that's an area which perhaps we could do a little bit better.
29:22
And I guess just to build on that, and to bring it to life from a Beltran point of view, I mean, we did a study where we looked at a notional comparison of a for sale and a foreign scheme.
29:33
And, you know, looking at the OpEx element is definitely becoming a more and more dominant part of the viability equation.
29:40
And, there's, this notion of study, showed that, actually, yeah, 5% movement in the gross to net actually could drive, you know, not in that kind of example, 1% on the IRR, for example.
29:53
So, it's, as Dan says, it's, it's definitely a very important focus area as he, you know, for the written in the context of retirement living, moving, increased into a rental model.
30:04
That's, That's really interesting area to explore it further. I think, is potentially dangerous areas on behalf of senior living operators and developers. If we start to focus in on net net to grows, you start to cut Living. The over some of the aspects out of me, which for the elements within the bill to read is probably more acceptable than it is in Senior living.
30:25
And I think you're right there is, again, the comparables on live for, like, and can be tricky because of average unit size or service delivery to those units. The basic requirements that we would have a different, the investment, a profile that's built renter, achieving against ourselves. As I say, we have built into the mission of nascent, but we are a few years behind them. So we'd love to track that, investment, your profile, to see how that would affect back into rental prices. And he's really just trying to ensure that you, you maintain a service delivery product, because if people are moving into this type of environment to have some level of service. Now, some people don't want any level of service, some people want a bit more, but the fact is, is we've got to be there for the nozzle when and if they need that. And just to sort of tend to add vitality, and people pay a premium for that.
31:25
Know, so, for us, it's, again, it's been able to have a, S is a calculator to allow people to understand what they're getting. And if people are getting a value for money proposition, and it's understandable, then that's where we say in the sector will evolve, too. And part of that, again, is learning. How do we market it, how it was the headline figures? well, how to ensure the way of being transparent families, and to upset, because I feel like we've done something terrible to their grandparents. So, so we're very, very clear and transparent and everything we do. Members as well. As we all know, the retirement community operators, yeah, we're bound by a code, or sell the Standards Committee, and we take that very, very seriously. But I think it's the case, you're trying to compare an apple with an apple, which is very difficult when, when you've got different products, but there is a series of similarities, which I'm sure Anthony can, can, can share with us.
32:23
Know, I endorse all of that Jimmy and, I mean that there are similar tensions aren't they in, in, in these developments. And let me make my view is, I think it was ... who came out with a report. Recently come another Brazilian sectors coming out of Colvin, talked about.
32:40
you know, it's all about beds and sheds.
32:43
Now I'm not sure, I strictly agree with that, but there's something in it, and I'm actually that you know this, this build, build to rent both.
32:51
You know, both in terms of Jimmy what you're doing and what we're, we're up to in the city center.
32:56
I would say this wouldn't I, but I do think it's best days are ahead of it, I think in the regions that actually, there's a lot of talk about build to rent, but they're actually spend some limited action and hasn't the action hasn't met the talk. So there's been some good assets, which are stabilized, which I think will sell a pretty high water and yields in the next few months from what I'm hearing. And that will send some really ambitious benchmarks moving forward, but the investment potential in the regions, particularly in this city in Birmingham, about Build to rent moving forward. But the tensions the headwinds ahead are, for, you know, will dot net to gross comparison, is that, you know, is a really live one.
33:36
And we can streamline design to the Nth degree.
33:39
I'd be left with a clinical, sanitized inside, which misses the whole point.
33:46
You might get some funds, he'll say we'll figure it out later, but actually the rents are going to be good because we got loads of NIAAA. Well, that's, that's not what we do and are part of our tour de force there is, is convincing the phone to hold onto their nerve on that.
34:01
And, equally, you've got things like, you know, rental, rental price, and in and of itself, you know, we you got one scheme. We've got, we're an extra £50 a month on the Ren doesn't sign much does it, but but gives you 2% on the IRR so it can make a scheme from more profitable to very profitable. Well, you know, £50 capitalized on to that and particularly to bed for a person that actually puts it into, you know, super premium rent into unachievable rent.
34:30
So so we gotta make sure that we're been sensible and reasonable with all of these assumptions.
34:36
I'm a big fan of the more amazing day and beautiful outside space, the better.
34:41
No. We don't have anchors in the city center to deal with that. So we've got to make the best with what we can.
34:48
And that's about, that's about our customer journey from whether they get off the Metro ride of a taxi or walk in from, from everything, from using their apartment when and if they live on their own.
35:00
You know, how do we make sure that they're there, they build rapport and dialog and community relationship with people inside their building and we treat it as they're building On feedback's really important because there's very few things in property and developments even build assets. We can change, but we need to know about it.
35:17
So, real-time feedback is so critical, you know, to us, and we try and do that, And that will become more and more standardized, I think, in this industry moving forward.
35:26
Because it has to be because there will be a lot more choice ahead. You know. There's a lot more of these assets being built.
35:34
And customers, which is a great thing, by the way. Customers will have a huge amount of superior choice moving forward on they will vote with their feet. Which is great. So, So, you'll find I think that the quality and standards and these assets will only get better.
35:48
I think the secondary and tertiary asset's already existing today are going to have a problem, but but that's the free market. We're in functioning. Can I ask a question just taken over again? So, Velocity. In terms of the, your, your view on technology, helping people. You know, do you supply fast Wi-Fi into apartments or do you do you look at sort of trying to Technology algorithm anything like that in order to help manage people's lives as well? Do you do how far do you go?
36:21
Oh, It's a really live conversation.
36:22
I mean, we can, you know, um, you know, there's some great tech companies out there who have thought about all of this 10 times over, and I've got a product for everything, You know, so you've got, you've got a product, you got sensors on, if people are living alone and not moving around too much today to the concierges, find out and get an A knock on the door.
36:40
Know, does not equate to loneliness and mental, Well, you know, this will then, you know, if you haven't flush your toilet in three days, do you do we automatically close your valves to prevent the lake?
36:51
And you know, so, so you can really go down a rabbit hole without because that's all that all pushes into the CapEx and OpEx and ultimately, that will make your apartment more expensive to live in.
37:02
All of those things.
37:02
So there's always a balance between making it affordable, genuinely affordable, but also, you know, making it and making it user friendly for the, for the consumer as well, not too tech savvy.
37:15
So, and that goes back to about diversity of, you know, of customer point.
37:18
But but there is a there is a, a bigger point, Jimmie, isn't there. And the investment market that this diversification of income has got to be a good thing for funding.
37:28
Yeah. So, you know, if you have, if you have, you know, one of our total assets and you've got a really good depth and spread of the consumer market renting into that asset.
37:39
I'm not just totally reliant on the graduate market or the young professional market, but you're dealing with all sets of that demographic then.
37:47
I think that's a very strong argument of the stability of that income not. The end lends itself to the compression of the yield at the sale as well.
37:55
It's fascinating, because you do, we, we, we talk about the age, living, but actually on an investment sentence, and I'll have this conversation a number of times.
38:08
It's less risky than your market, generally, people about the built up, a level of capital, by way of house ownership, or just, generally, capital investments. But then, they'll have a fixed income on a pension, fixed income could be large, It could be small bodies, but he's known, so, therefore, they, these people. When they, when they sign up, then, then you pretty much know exactly the level of income. So they will have, for the whole of their time staying with you in comparison to what you might have is somebody move in. The loser jumped the next week.
38:42
So, so, so, yeah, there's those as well. I think, as the build to rent sector moves and looks into the senior living sector, I think nothing is a different proposition that requires a different solution. But in some ways, he's risk profile in terms of the integers said a lot stronger surveys. So I just think, is, this is where we should collaborate, because you've got the two parts of the equation that they're working together. Would would be phenomenal and strengthened.
39:14
Definitely, I'll jump in there, then. That isn't, That was really, really interesting. I mean, can we conclude this session? But, I mean, I think, what Jamie just sat there, and I think everything that Anthony said, too, is that there is a lot that can be learned from those three sectors. And you can see an alignment can't even a lot more towards the inter-generational project. That actually does help considerably, both younger and older people in terms of social stimulation, and that cup of tea aspect of being able to sit down and just chat. And that, it's not actually, a camera doesn't need to be a camera to make somebody feel a bit better. Anybody got? Any final thoughts that they want to just throw in?
40:12
OK, well, said, thank you very, very much to my guests. So Antony, Jamie, Darren Unwell. And they say don't know that you should never work with children and animals. So I do apologize to the snoring that has been going on lost. My microphone was unmuted, which is my dog, not myself. So, thank you, everybody. That was a really good session that we may wish to develop further going forward. Thanks very much, guys. Thanks very much.
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